WTKA Roundtable 12/21/2023: The Third Party Hates YouSeth
Note: No Brian today; we got John U. Bacon to fill in.
Things Discussed:
Recruiting: Sam: look at the portal too. Seth: Barham is a GREAT pickup.
Mark my words: in 4 years Michigan's 27 players are going to wind up providing more value to Michigan than Miami's 27 players are going to provide to Miami.
But I would like to see us get better at the up-front bag game for cornerbacks and wide receivers and quarterbacks who have a lot of value on the open market because the skills you see in high school are more likely to translate.
You aren't winning a 5-star who takes the bag to go to A&M. You should be winning 5-stars against Ohio State and Georgia and Alabama who know they're going to win and get developed AND get paid. Up-front payments are a line we won't cross, and I wish that wasn't the case, even if it does lead to stress-free signing days.
Burgergate: Congrats to Ohio State for getting the #1 player in the country without using NIL as an inducement, because if you buy a cheeseburger and try to cover it up the NCAA is on the case. Releasing the NOA on signing day should erase any doubt whether this investigation exists for any reason other than a vendetta.
Harbaugh NFL Round Whatever This Is: Yes be afraid of the Chargers, be very afraid if by some chance Las Vegas doesn't stick with their guy, don't be so afraid of the Bears.
Contract: Craig says there's no point unless there's an assumption of reasonableness.
Seth: It's not Michigan or Harbaugh we're worried about being reasonable, it's the Big Ten and NCAA, who have demonstrated conclusively that they are going to use any means at their disposal to hurt Michigan as long as Harbaugh is around. Is that hate ta Michigan problem or a Harbaugh problem? That's the question they need to resolve, because there's no way to keep Harbaugh unless Michigan has his back.
Opinion: They'll probably hate any other coach who's as successful at Michigan as Harbaugh. Also this probably has more to do with how much Warde and some of the regents are tired of dealing with it than what's right for Michigan.
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Love the pod, this is insightful stuff, but was a bit disappointed that there was no rose bowl discussion.
We are playing Ala-freaking-Bama as the 1-seed in the playoff! My first game as a fan was App State. This is a huge deal! Would rather hear more about that than the NCAA’s ineptitude.
regardless, great job, and always cool to hear from Bacon
Seth
December 21st, 2023 at 10:43 AM
^
We did that last episode and we had Bacon this time. There will be a lot of bama content after Xmas.
WindyCityBlue
December 21st, 2023 at 11:46 AM
^
They were pretty clear that Rose Bowl coverage and in depth discussions start next week, which makes sense to me.
dragonchild
December 21st, 2023 at 10:43 AM
^
I don't want Michigan to sign any kid who's all, "Give me a huge bag full of money before I've done a single damn thing."
You don't have to ask Texas A&M what that approach is getting them. Just ask any sane parent (they're hard to find but they exist) if "allowance now, homework later" is a reliable way to motivate a teenager.
highlow
December 21st, 2023 at 10:53 AM
^
I think that's the wrong way to think about it. Signing bonuses for jobs aren't all that uncommon, and if a kid is offered a for-real $100,000 for signing, it's sort of insane to sign somewhere that says, "don't worry, eventually we'll take care of you." If you're looking at this from a well-rounded point of view, well, $100k is a lot, maybe you blow out your knee or you get passed on the depth chart or etc, etc. No guarantee that you end up top of the heap getting checks. (Look at Charbonnet - great player who didn't stay because, no fault of his own, the opportunities weren't there for him.)
I want Michigan to be like the old Goldman Sachs. When GS meant something special on Wall Street, its salaries for analysts (the position for new college grads) were ~90% of their peers. Their pitch was not unlike M's - you'll be better off for the rest of your life if you come here. They didn't want people who were just chasing the highest dollar. But they also paid a competitive salary, they didn't tell their recruits to live in poverty while other places paid them to live high on the hog.
Michigan should do that. Michigan should strive to be a respectable third place in NIL stuff. We don't want to win the kids who are pure bidding wars. But for the kids who look at stuff holistically, we don't want money to be a problem. Does that make sense?
ETA: I also feel like the "they'll stop working after they get the bag" discourse is weird. Like, you have to (a) love ball and (b) work exceptionally hard, all the time, to be a major recruit. Everyone wants to make the league, which they understand will take years of extreme effort once they make college. Is there even an anecdotal case of a guy who showed up on campus after getting the check who then just didn't go to practice or whatever?
Hotel Putingrad
December 21st, 2023 at 11:13 AM
^
Mostly agree here, but it's really a positional value thing. We should definitely be looking at bags for WRs and CBs. I'm not as sold on QBs though because they almost always suck as true freshmen so why not just raid the portal for somebody who already got paid.
As for Harbaugh, Warde, and the NCAA circus, something has to change. Ono is going to have to put his finger on the scale or else Jim is definitely leaving for Las Vegas.
highlow
December 21st, 2023 at 11:16 AM
^
But isn't the MGoBlog catechism true frosh WR suck, and true frosh DB that are not Will Johnson shouldn't touch the field for meaningful snaps?
MGlobules
December 21st, 2023 at 5:11 PM
^
Maybe this isn't news, but there might be a lot less hassles in the NFL.
iMBlue2
December 21st, 2023 at 7:57 PM
^
Warde clearly likes eating so maybe he can eat a dick with his buddy Stapleton.
dragonchild
December 21st, 2023 at 11:41 AM
^
Like, you have to (a) love ball and (b) work exceptionally hard, all the time, to be a major recruit.
No, you don't. You absolutely don't! Star ratings are based on NFL measurables, not your love of the game. There are players working extremely hard stuck in who-dat world because their arms are too short or whatever, factors they cannot control, and five-stars who are coasting on little more than winning the body frame lottery and some time in the gym.
Is there even an anecdotal case of a guy who showed up on campus after getting the check who then just didn't go to practice or whatever?
Plenty! Not so much playing hooky but certainly dogging it. Let's start with OSU's DEs and DBs, who have all the natural talent in the world but wound up mostly meh because they're coasting until they get drafted, again, purely on body type. To say nothing of the Texas A&M business model.
These stories aren't merely common; they're ubiquitous and timeless! They come out every year in every corner of the country, and have at least as long I've followed football so certainly decades prior. I didn't think it was possible to follow sports at all and not hear about the overhyped wunderkid underperforming because of a silver spoon stuck in his mouth. It's literally a cliche!
highlow
December 21st, 2023 at 11:50 AM
^
Disagree with both!
Sure, being a 5* means you won the genetic lottery. But I'm really doubtful you can "coast" to being a 5* because you need to work a bunch on your technique and being in the gym a lot more than I think you're giving them credit. (What about the import-a-Euros who are unreal athletes but can't actually ever play football?)
Who at OSU do you think is dogging it? Isn't the story with the DBs and DE that their coaching has been bad? A&M seems like a fucked culture where people don't care, true enough, but that doesn't mean (to me) that guys are totally lazy. I think a lot about UGa and Bama where (a) the checks are cashing and (b) the guys are absolutely grinding.
dragonchild
December 21st, 2023 at 11:54 AM
^
Who at OSU do you think is dogging it?
https://mgoblog.com/diaries/lazy-soft-i-guess
highlow
December 21st, 2023 at 12:16 PM
^
Hah, fair enough. But my point is a bit different: I don't think that OSU guys are lazy because they get paid. I just think about Bama and UGa, extremely hardworking and extremely compensated places.
DaftPunk
December 21st, 2023 at 2:29 PM
^
Way to bring the receipts.
Denzel Burke's mouth to meaningful Michigan tackles ratio is way off.
shoes
December 21st, 2023 at 5:50 PM
^
Bosa, Ohio State, took off half of his last season even though he had physically recovered.
MGlobules
December 21st, 2023 at 5:19 PM
^
Well, it is a cliche. Anonymous resentful fans who decide that the kids are lazy--that that's their problem--are legion. And that narrative is very, very suspect, for historical as well as psychological reasons. We're in our armchairs and ardent fans (working so hard ourselves)--how dare they not win every game!!!
I'm not convinced. We don't know what any given person is going through at any time, let alone on Saturday.
But let me ask this in response: How many of these 18-20 year olds, most of whom have killed it for years to get here (I've watched some of them up close) can really afford to take plays off ("dog it") without having that directly affect their future salary and chance for success? When everything is being filmed and agents/teams are conducting the evals they do nowadays?
I once saw a calculation that like one in 250,000 aspiring young athletes becomes a pro. But pick a number, any number: How many do you think are dogging it? Discouraged, depressed, hurt, had a hard week, gramma got shot in a drive-by, you name it, there's a lot of shit out there. But dogging it? That's mostly fan fiction. And a trope with a decided lean.
AlbanyBlue
December 21st, 2023 at 11:44 AM
^
I love this comment. But I am so conflicted.
I have of course loved the results the last few years, but the team-first culture has been really great too. Players like Corum and Sainristil, the team is full of them! So do your best to maintain results, but also maintain the culture too. OK, that's the premise for me.
To (hopefully) maintain the culture, we just need to keep on keepin' on, recruiting the way we are. But will that lead to top recruits like JJ and Will Johnson often enough to keep us at the top of the heap? If so, then cool.....but if not.....
Individual feelings of pay-for-sign aside, it exists, and it's only expanding -- look at Miami now! Is it going to get to the point where even the rare player who would have come to a team without money up front is going to say, "you know what, I'm going to get mine too....."? I think it probably is. If Michigan is left as one of the only major programs not doing this (this may be the case right now), then it is almost certain to be left behind.
But can we dip our toe in, so to speak, and only "bag" for selected positions? If you're gonna go in part-way, I say jump in fully. Play the game the way the Ohio States play it, acknowledging that this is how CFB is right now, caught between amateur and pro and trying to find the way. But that's only my opinion....Michigan (apparently) isn't going that way.
That said, the NIL train is rolling, get on board, or get left behind.
This post first appeared on
Mgoblog, please read the originial post:
here
Gustavo Fring
December 21st, 2023 at 10:39 AM ^
Love the pod, this is insightful stuff, but was a bit disappointed that there was no rose bowl discussion.
We are playing Ala-freaking-Bama as the 1-seed in the playoff! My first game as a fan was App State. This is a huge deal! Would rather hear more about that than the NCAA’s ineptitude.
regardless, great job, and always cool to hear from Bacon
Joined: 09/29/2009
MGoPoints: 4983
Seth
December 21st, 2023 at 10:43 AM ^
We did that last episode and we had Bacon this time. There will be a lot of bama content after Xmas.
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 145878
WindyCityBlue
December 21st, 2023 at 11:46 AM ^
They were pretty clear that Rose Bowl coverage and in depth discussions start next week, which makes sense to me.
Joined: 07/23/2008
MGoPoints: 37541
dragonchild
December 21st, 2023 at 10:43 AM ^
I don't want Michigan to sign any kid who's all, "Give me a huge bag full of money before I've done a single damn thing."
You don't have to ask Texas A&M what that approach is getting them. Just ask any sane parent (they're hard to find but they exist) if "allowance now, homework later" is a reliable way to motivate a teenager.
Joined: 10/13/2011
MGoPoints: 55420
highlow
December 21st, 2023 at 10:53 AM ^
I think that's the wrong way to think about it. Signing bonuses for jobs aren't all that uncommon, and if a kid is offered a for-real $100,000 for signing, it's sort of insane to sign somewhere that says, "don't worry, eventually we'll take care of you." If you're looking at this from a well-rounded point of view, well, $100k is a lot, maybe you blow out your knee or you get passed on the depth chart or etc, etc. No guarantee that you end up top of the heap getting checks. (Look at Charbonnet - great player who didn't stay because, no fault of his own, the opportunities weren't there for him.)
I want Michigan to be like the old Goldman Sachs. When GS meant something special on Wall Street, its salaries for analysts (the position for new college grads) were ~90% of their peers. Their pitch was not unlike M's - you'll be better off for the rest of your life if you come here. They didn't want people who were just chasing the highest dollar. But they also paid a competitive salary, they didn't tell their recruits to live in poverty while other places paid them to live high on the hog.
Michigan should do that. Michigan should strive to be a respectable third place in NIL stuff. We don't want to win the kids who are pure bidding wars. But for the kids who look at stuff holistically, we don't want money to be a problem. Does that make sense?
ETA: I also feel like the "they'll stop working after they get the bag" discourse is weird. Like, you have to (a) love ball and (b) work exceptionally hard, all the time, to be a major recruit. Everyone wants to make the league, which they understand will take years of extreme effort once they make college. Is there even an anecdotal case of a guy who showed up on campus after getting the check who then just didn't go to practice or whatever?
Joined: 04/17/2020
MGoPoints: 1406
Hotel Putingrad
December 21st, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
Mostly agree here, but it's really a positional value thing. We should definitely be looking at bags for WRs and CBs. I'm not as sold on QBs though because they almost always suck as true freshmen so why not just raid the portal for somebody who already got paid.
As for Harbaugh, Warde, and the NCAA circus, something has to change. Ono is going to have to put his finger on the scale or else Jim is definitely leaving for Las Vegas.
Joined: 12/10/2014
MGoPoints: 201949
highlow
December 21st, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
But isn't the MGoBlog catechism true frosh WR suck, and true frosh DB that are not Will Johnson shouldn't touch the field for meaningful snaps?
Joined: 04/17/2020
MGoPoints: 1406
MGlobules
December 21st, 2023 at 5:11 PM ^
Maybe this isn't news, but there might be a lot less hassles in the NFL.
Joined: 11/17/2008
MGoPoints: 45954
iMBlue2
December 21st, 2023 at 7:57 PM ^
Warde clearly likes eating so maybe he can eat a dick with his buddy Stapleton.
Joined: 11/24/2017
MGoPoints: 13992
dragonchild
December 21st, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
No, you don't. You absolutely don't! Star ratings are based on NFL measurables, not your love of the game. There are players working extremely hard stuck in who-dat world because their arms are too short or whatever, factors they cannot control, and five-stars who are coasting on little more than winning the body frame lottery and some time in the gym.
Plenty! Not so much playing hooky but certainly dogging it. Let's start with OSU's DEs and DBs, who have all the natural talent in the world but wound up mostly meh because they're coasting until they get drafted, again, purely on body type. To say nothing of the Texas A&M business model.
These stories aren't merely common; they're ubiquitous and timeless! They come out every year in every corner of the country, and have at least as long I've followed football so certainly decades prior. I didn't think it was possible to follow sports at all and not hear about the overhyped wunderkid underperforming because of a silver spoon stuck in his mouth. It's literally a cliche!
Joined: 10/13/2011
MGoPoints: 55420
highlow
December 21st, 2023 at 11:50 AM ^
Disagree with both!
Sure, being a 5* means you won the genetic lottery. But I'm really doubtful you can "coast" to being a 5* because you need to work a bunch on your technique and being in the gym a lot more than I think you're giving them credit. (What about the import-a-Euros who are unreal athletes but can't actually ever play football?)
Who at OSU do you think is dogging it? Isn't the story with the DBs and DE that their coaching has been bad? A&M seems like a fucked culture where people don't care, true enough, but that doesn't mean (to me) that guys are totally lazy. I think a lot about UGa and Bama where (a) the checks are cashing and (b) the guys are absolutely grinding.
Joined: 04/17/2020
MGoPoints: 1406
dragonchild
December 21st, 2023 at 11:54 AM ^
https://mgoblog.com/diaries/lazy-soft-i-guess
Joined: 10/13/2011
MGoPoints: 55420
highlow
December 21st, 2023 at 12:16 PM ^
Hah, fair enough. But my point is a bit different: I don't think that OSU guys are lazy because they get paid. I just think about Bama and UGa, extremely hardworking and extremely compensated places.
Joined: 04/17/2020
MGoPoints: 1406
DaftPunk
December 21st, 2023 at 2:29 PM ^
Way to bring the receipts.
Denzel Burke's mouth to meaningful Michigan tackles ratio is way off.
Joined: 08/21/2018
MGoPoints: 4909
shoes
December 21st, 2023 at 5:50 PM ^
Bosa, Ohio State, took off half of his last season even though he had physically recovered.
Joined: 07/01/2008
MGoPoints: 7868
MGlobules
December 21st, 2023 at 5:19 PM ^
Well, it is a cliche. Anonymous resentful fans who decide that the kids are lazy--that that's their problem--are legion. And that narrative is very, very suspect, for historical as well as psychological reasons. We're in our armchairs and ardent fans (working so hard ourselves)--how dare they not win every game!!!
I'm not convinced. We don't know what any given person is going through at any time, let alone on Saturday.
But let me ask this in response: How many of these 18-20 year olds, most of whom have killed it for years to get here (I've watched some of them up close) can really afford to take plays off ("dog it") without having that directly affect their future salary and chance for success? When everything is being filmed and agents/teams are conducting the evals they do nowadays?
I once saw a calculation that like one in 250,000 aspiring young athletes becomes a pro. But pick a number, any number: How many do you think are dogging it? Discouraged, depressed, hurt, had a hard week, gramma got shot in a drive-by, you name it, there's a lot of shit out there. But dogging it? That's mostly fan fiction. And a trope with a decided lean.
Joined: 11/17/2008
MGoPoints: 45954
AlbanyBlue
December 21st, 2023 at 11:44 AM ^
I love this comment. But I am so conflicted.
I have of course loved the results the last few years, but the team-first culture has been really great too. Players like Corum and Sainristil, the team is full of them! So do your best to maintain results, but also maintain the culture too. OK, that's the premise for me.
To (hopefully) maintain the culture, we just need to keep on keepin' on, recruiting the way we are. But will that lead to top recruits like JJ and Will Johnson often enough to keep us at the top of the heap? If so, then cool.....but if not.....
Individual feelings of pay-for-sign aside, it exists, and it's only expanding -- look at Miami now! Is it going to get to the point where even the rare player who would have come to a team without money up front is going to say, "you know what, I'm going to get mine too....."? I think it probably is. If Michigan is left as one of the only major programs not doing this (this may be the case right now), then it is almost certain to be left behind.
But can we dip our toe in, so to speak, and only "bag" for selected positions? If you're gonna go in part-way, I say jump in fully. Play the game the way the Ohio States play it, acknowledging that this is how CFB is right now, caught between amateur and pro and trying to find the way. But that's only my opinion....Michigan (apparently) isn't going that way.
That said, the NIL train is rolling, get on board, or get left behind.
Joined: 09/11/2010
MGoPoints: 19371