The LSA transfer policy is not the biggest issue. The biggest issue is Juwan's inability to coach. He's a mediocre recruiter who doesn't develop talent. Our teams consistently give away games late, and go long stretches of time without a FG. Sure, it would be nice to have guys that want to transfer, but get better with what you got.
dragonchild
December 14th, 2023 at 10:56 AM
^
It kind of is though, but not how it's framed.
The LSA sucks, and that goes well beyond athletics. That said, if your neighbor builds a brick wall on your property, you can't keep slamming your head into it and then use that as an excuse for injury. Whatever legal case you may have, you also look like an idiot. LSA being stingy with transfer credits predates Howard by decades. Beilein dealt with it. Does it suck? Indubitably. But then why the hell is he expending limited resources going after transfers we all but know won't get admitted? If it's to make a point, it's not one he should be allowed to sink the program to make.
I'm on record as NOT one to turn our AD into a "we ain't here to play school" joint, and it's certainly absurd that the LSA's transfer policy is basically impossible to deal with, and that absolutely cripples the athletic programs. But the thing to do here, beyond continue to complain about it, is focus on HS recruits and grad transfers, and not waste another second on anyone with no chance of coming here.
InHoc548
December 14th, 2023 at 12:01 PM
^
Well said, agree.
jmblue
December 14th, 2023 at 12:07 PM
^
LSA's transfer policy is basically impossible to deal with, and that absolutely cripples the athletic programs.
This is a little over the top. Most of our sports teams are doing fine, and we just happen to be undefeated and #1 in the country in the highest-profile sport!
U-M wants people who graduate from here to have completed a majority (60+) of their credits here. They don't want someone completing most of their studies elsewhere and then claiming to be a Michigan grad, both because they feel it could compromise the value of that degree ... and also because they like getting our tuition money. That's the school's position and it's defensible.
For underclassman transfers, this usually doesn't pose a problem. Witness Ernest Haussmann, Charles Matthews, Duncan Robinson, et al. Introductory courses generally will transfer over.
For grad transfers, there is no real issue. We've brought in a bunch.
It is an issue for upperclassmen who aren't able to graduate before they come here, yes. But they are only a minority of all the players in the portal. Our problem in basketball was that we targeted players in this category two offseasons in a row - Shannon and Love. We should have done our due diligence, figured out that these guys probably weren't going to make it, and moved on to other targets. Instead we put our eggs in the Shannon/Love basket, watched them end up not getting in, and blamed admissions.
At the same time, we did bring in three transfers this offseason (Burnett, Nkamhoua, Jackson). How did our roster management get to the point where three transfers in one offseason wasn't enough?
dragonchild
December 14th, 2023 at 12:24 PM
^
Yeah I'll cop to being hyperbolic. But I'd say the focus on Shannon and Love was at least as destructive as the failure to get them on campus.
Missing on a player, that happens. Missing on a transfer you gambled heavily on when just asking around would've gotten you a roomful of guffaws about how Quixotic your idea is, you dun goofed.
Blue Vet
December 14th, 2023 at 1:26 PM
^
Dun Goof, Willy Wonka's cousin.
wavintheflag
December 14th, 2023 at 3:24 PM
^
Spot on. Also thought Love was supposed to have graduated before coming over but did not.
bronxblue
December 14th, 2023 at 12:20 PM
^
Largely agree, though I'll add that I think Howard has really only missed on two transfers - Shannon and Love - who he likely assumed (and was probably told as much) would be grad transfers. The Love situation is less acceptable because Howard had seen with Shannon but lots of these guys technically graduate within 3 years because they're on campus over the summer and so take courses. Nimari Burnett is from the same class as Love and is a grad transfer, for example.
I don't think we should blame everything on admissions and Howard deserves some blame for not locking this down with transfers before they come in but also it does feel a bit like he's just been snakebitten with situations that had they just gone as expected would have alleviated a number of issues.
4th phase
December 14th, 2023 at 1:12 PM
^
The most frustrating thing is that if Howard just tampered with Shannon and Love, instead of being above board, their schools would have been more willing to let them finish their degrees. At least that was the case with Shannon, who once he committed to Michigan, Texas Tech decided to be petty about letting him graduate.
maquih
December 14th, 2023 at 1:49 PM
^
We had two NBA first rounders and Hunter Dickison last year. Lack of talent is simply not the issue, admissions or otherwise.
Maison Bleue
December 14th, 2023 at 11:03 AM
^
I agree that admissions policies are certainly not the biggest issue. Would it have been nice to get Shannon and Love? Of course, but maybe make sure you are allocating time and resources to bring in players you KNOW will be admitted. That's on Coach Howard.
UM had two first-round NBA draft picks and the #1 transfer portal target on its team last season and couldn't make the tournament. That's not an admissions problem, that's a coaching/roster construction problem.
I also find it odd that Coach Howard can't give a press conference but is well enough to sit on the bench, get thrown out of games, and allegedly beef with other staff members. We haven't heard him speak to the media since UM lost to Vandy in the NIT. That was almost 300 days ago. A lot has happened over the last 3/4 of the year even before this season started and his heart surgery, including two players getting drafted, his best player transferring, transfers coming in, and transfers not getting in. Not a peep about any of it. Can we get an explanation of what Howard's plan is for this team and the future of the program from someone... anyone... please?
Couple these points with Coach Howard's inability to control his emotions and ability to create drama(Turgeon, Wisconsin slap, and now Sanderson)maybe it's time to reset the program. It feels like it's lost its way and doesn't look like this is the staff to turn it around.
ST3
December 14th, 2023 at 11:54 AM
^
The Sanderson thing feels like it could be strike three, but the pitch was close to the edge of the strike zone so they’ve gone to instant replay and now we’re all waiting for some unseen judge to review the pitch and make a decision.
Have I mentioned I hate instant replay?
MGlobules
December 14th, 2023 at 12:16 PM
^
I think it was probably Sanderson who was out of line. And the HR move may be an attempt to deflect that. Screaming at a player in front of the other players that he, the coach's son, is emblematic of a culture problem? Totally inappropriate. (And what does it say about Phil and the assistants when Juwan's been gone for months? Everyone of the assistants is worth ten of Sanderson in the real big boy world of basketball.) Hummel was right that Juwan should have called Sanderson, his employee, into his office to ream him. But Juwan didn't create that incident.
And--let's remember, at least those of us interested in what really happened and not just looking for excuses to pile on--both Goodman and Hummel were sympathetic with Jace, who teed off in frustration at his slow recovery. If the call was that Jace was half-assing it and he hasn't been, and Juwan knows it, then having his strength coach tee off on his kid and saying the team has a culture problem, in front of the rest of the squad, that might piss a person off.
It's Phil who needs to move on, and a clear chain of command re-established.
Those calling for Juwan's head are likely to be disappointed. They're going to give him the year. And after losing multiple NBA players three years running, what he's managed is perfectly okay. They moved heaven and earth last summer, and put together a team with real potential. It's not Juwan's fault they didn't get Love (or TSJ last summer), and this team can be good, anyway.
bronxblue
December 14th, 2023 at 12:23 PM
^
Yeah, nobody handled that situation well but screaming at a player that the team sucks and questioning the coaching of both Howard and, by extension, Martelli as the acting HC is pretty bad on Sanderson's behalf. In a normal world this would have been handled in-house but this current one, where apparently that weird OSU kid stopped playing NCAA football on his Xbox 360 and instead picked up Athletic Director Simulator 3000, UM has to deal with dumb bullshit like Signgate and this situation where two large humans yelled at each other.
bringthewood
December 14th, 2023 at 1:01 PM
^
I completely agree. As a basketball follower since the 1970's I have seen a ton come and go. Some were better recruiters but outside if Beilein I am not sure I have seen a ton better coaches than Juwan - and he LOVES the University. Johnny Orr did well without a ton of high level talent but Amaker, Frieder? Fisher was able to manage teams of great players.
I always get a sense that Juwan, for whatever reason does not get the love or even the leash that other Michigan greats seem to get. I guess I am surprised at the amount vitriol directed towards Juwan.
We also always seen to measure our coaches vs perfection, instead of the realistic alternative.
jwfsouthpaw
December 14th, 2023 at 2:19 PM
^
This is interesting, because I am surprised at the number of people who seem to be supportive of Howard given the trajectory of the program, especially in light of the on-court and off-court issues that have been become public.
Your comment touches on something that I've been wondering about: Do people's perspectives on Howard depend on whether you watched/were invested in the Fab 5 era?
snarling wolverine
December 14th, 2023 at 2:29 PM
^
I always get a sense that Juwan, for whatever reason does not get the love or even the leash that other Michigan greats seem to get. I guess I am surprised at the amount vitriol directed towards Juwan.
Did other Michigan greats regularly come close to blows with other coaches?
I've been a Juwan fan, and it brings me no pleasure to say this, but at this point it is difficult to keep justifying his behavior. The man is 50 years old. Why is he on the verge of blowing up all the time?
snarling wolverine
December 14th, 2023 at 2:24 PM
^
Here's the thing ... it really is immaterial which guy started it. What is at
This post first appeared on
Mgoblog, please read the originial post:
here
InHoc548
December 14th, 2023 at 10:44 AM ^
The LSA transfer policy is not the biggest issue. The biggest issue is Juwan's inability to coach. He's a mediocre recruiter who doesn't develop talent. Our teams consistently give away games late, and go long stretches of time without a FG. Sure, it would be nice to have guys that want to transfer, but get better with what you got.
Joined: 11/27/2023
MGoPoints: 114
dragonchild
December 14th, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^
It kind of is though, but not how it's framed.
The LSA sucks, and that goes well beyond athletics. That said, if your neighbor builds a brick wall on your property, you can't keep slamming your head into it and then use that as an excuse for injury. Whatever legal case you may have, you also look like an idiot. LSA being stingy with transfer credits predates Howard by decades. Beilein dealt with it. Does it suck? Indubitably. But then why the hell is he expending limited resources going after transfers we all but know won't get admitted? If it's to make a point, it's not one he should be allowed to sink the program to make.
I'm on record as NOT one to turn our AD into a "we ain't here to play school" joint, and it's certainly absurd that the LSA's transfer policy is basically impossible to deal with, and that absolutely cripples the athletic programs. But the thing to do here, beyond continue to complain about it, is focus on HS recruits and grad transfers, and not waste another second on anyone with no chance of coming here.
Joined: 10/13/2011
MGoPoints: 55300
InHoc548
December 14th, 2023 at 12:01 PM ^
Well said, agree.
Joined: 11/27/2023
MGoPoints: 114
jmblue
December 14th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
This is a little over the top. Most of our sports teams are doing fine, and we just happen to be undefeated and #1 in the country in the highest-profile sport!
U-M wants people who graduate from here to have completed a majority (60+) of their credits here. They don't want someone completing most of their studies elsewhere and then claiming to be a Michigan grad, both because they feel it could compromise the value of that degree ... and also because they like getting our tuition money. That's the school's position and it's defensible.
For underclassman transfers, this usually doesn't pose a problem. Witness Ernest Haussmann, Charles Matthews, Duncan Robinson, et al. Introductory courses generally will transfer over.
For grad transfers, there is no real issue. We've brought in a bunch.
It is an issue for upperclassmen who aren't able to graduate before they come here, yes. But they are only a minority of all the players in the portal. Our problem in basketball was that we targeted players in this category two offseasons in a row - Shannon and Love. We should have done our due diligence, figured out that these guys probably weren't going to make it, and moved on to other targets. Instead we put our eggs in the Shannon/Love basket, watched them end up not getting in, and blamed admissions.
At the same time, we did bring in three transfers this offseason (Burnett, Nkamhoua, Jackson). How did our roster management get to the point where three transfers in one offseason wasn't enough?
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 99981
dragonchild
December 14th, 2023 at 12:24 PM ^
Yeah I'll cop to being hyperbolic. But I'd say the focus on Shannon and Love was at least as destructive as the failure to get them on campus.
Missing on a player, that happens. Missing on a transfer you gambled heavily on when just asking around would've gotten you a roomful of guffaws about how Quixotic your idea is, you dun goofed.
Joined: 10/13/2011
MGoPoints: 55300
Blue Vet
December 14th, 2023 at 1:26 PM ^
Dun Goof, Willy Wonka's cousin.
Joined: 05/08/2012
MGoPoints: 66604
wavintheflag
December 14th, 2023 at 3:24 PM ^
Spot on. Also thought Love was supposed to have graduated before coming over but did not.
Joined: 03/22/2009
MGoPoints: 248
bronxblue
December 14th, 2023 at 12:20 PM ^
Largely agree, though I'll add that I think Howard has really only missed on two transfers - Shannon and Love - who he likely assumed (and was probably told as much) would be grad transfers. The Love situation is less acceptable because Howard had seen with Shannon but lots of these guys technically graduate within 3 years because they're on campus over the summer and so take courses. Nimari Burnett is from the same class as Love and is a grad transfer, for example.
I don't think we should blame everything on admissions and Howard deserves some blame for not locking this down with transfers before they come in but also it does feel a bit like he's just been snakebitten with situations that had they just gone as expected would have alleviated a number of issues.
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 164078
4th phase
December 14th, 2023 at 1:12 PM ^
The most frustrating thing is that if Howard just tampered with Shannon and Love, instead of being above board, their schools would have been more willing to let them finish their degrees. At least that was the case with Shannon, who once he committed to Michigan, Texas Tech decided to be petty about letting him graduate.
Joined: 12/12/2017
MGoPoints: 12900
maquih
December 14th, 2023 at 1:49 PM ^
We had two NBA first rounders and Hunter Dickison last year. Lack of talent is simply not the issue, admissions or otherwise.
Joined: 11/04/2010
MGoPoints: 1059
Maison Bleue
December 14th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^
I agree that admissions policies are certainly not the biggest issue. Would it have been nice to get Shannon and Love? Of course, but maybe make sure you are allocating time and resources to bring in players you KNOW will be admitted. That's on Coach Howard.
UM had two first-round NBA draft picks and the #1 transfer portal target on its team last season and couldn't make the tournament. That's not an admissions problem, that's a coaching/roster construction problem.
I also find it odd that Coach Howard can't give a press conference but is well enough to sit on the bench, get thrown out of games, and allegedly beef with other staff members. We haven't heard him speak to the media since UM lost to Vandy in the NIT. That was almost 300 days ago. A lot has happened over the last 3/4 of the year even before this season started and his heart surgery, including two players getting drafted, his best player transferring, transfers coming in, and transfers not getting in. Not a peep about any of it. Can we get an explanation of what Howard's plan is for this team and the future of the program from someone... anyone... please?
Couple these points with Coach Howard's inability to control his emotions and ability to create drama(Turgeon, Wisconsin slap, and now Sanderson)maybe it's time to reset the program. It feels like it's lost its way and doesn't look like this is the staff to turn it around.
Joined: 11/30/2012
MGoPoints: 22417
ST3
December 14th, 2023 at 11:54 AM ^
The Sanderson thing feels like it could be strike three, but the pitch was close to the edge of the strike zone so they’ve gone to instant replay and now we’re all waiting for some unseen judge to review the pitch and make a decision.
Have I mentioned I hate instant replay?
Joined: 09/11/2010
MGoPoints: 48525
MGlobules
December 14th, 2023 at 12:16 PM ^
I think it was probably Sanderson who was out of line. And the HR move may be an attempt to deflect that. Screaming at a player in front of the other players that he, the coach's son, is emblematic of a culture problem? Totally inappropriate. (And what does it say about Phil and the assistants when Juwan's been gone for months? Everyone of the assistants is worth ten of Sanderson in the real big boy world of basketball.) Hummel was right that Juwan should have called Sanderson, his employee, into his office to ream him. But Juwan didn't create that incident.
And--let's remember, at least those of us interested in what really happened and not just looking for excuses to pile on--both Goodman and Hummel were sympathetic with Jace, who teed off in frustration at his slow recovery. If the call was that Jace was half-assing it and he hasn't been, and Juwan knows it, then having his strength coach tee off on his kid and saying the team has a culture problem, in front of the rest of the squad, that might piss a person off.
It's Phil who needs to move on, and a clear chain of command re-established.
Those calling for Juwan's head are likely to be disappointed. They're going to give him the year. And after losing multiple NBA players three years running, what he's managed is perfectly okay. They moved heaven and earth last summer, and put together a team with real potential. It's not Juwan's fault they didn't get Love (or TSJ last summer), and this team can be good, anyway.
Joined: 11/17/2008
MGoPoints: 45420
bronxblue
December 14th, 2023 at 12:23 PM ^
Yeah, nobody handled that situation well but screaming at a player that the team sucks and questioning the coaching of both Howard and, by extension, Martelli as the acting HC is pretty bad on Sanderson's behalf. In a normal world this would have been handled in-house but this current one, where apparently that weird OSU kid stopped playing NCAA football on his Xbox 360 and instead picked up Athletic Director Simulator 3000, UM has to deal with dumb bullshit like Signgate and this situation where two large humans yelled at each other.
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 164078
bringthewood
December 14th, 2023 at 1:01 PM ^
I completely agree. As a basketball follower since the 1970's I have seen a ton come and go. Some were better recruiters but outside if Beilein I am not sure I have seen a ton better coaches than Juwan - and he LOVES the University. Johnny Orr did well without a ton of high level talent but Amaker, Frieder? Fisher was able to manage teams of great players.
I always get a sense that Juwan, for whatever reason does not get the love or even the leash that other Michigan greats seem to get. I guess I am surprised at the amount vitriol directed towards Juwan.
We also always seen to measure our coaches vs perfection, instead of the realistic alternative.
Joined: 09/07/2009
MGoPoints: 5487
jwfsouthpaw
December 14th, 2023 at 2:19 PM ^
This is interesting, because I am surprised at the number of people who seem to be supportive of Howard given the trajectory of the program, especially in light of the on-court and off-court issues that have been become public.
Your comment touches on something that I've been wondering about: Do people's perspectives on Howard depend on whether you watched/were invested in the Fab 5 era?
Joined: 01/14/2009
MGoPoints: 1169
snarling wolverine
December 14th, 2023 at 2:29 PM ^
Did other Michigan greats regularly come close to blows with other coaches?
I've been a Juwan fan, and it brings me no pleasure to say this, but at this point it is difficult to keep justifying his behavior. The man is 50 years old. Why is he on the verge of blowing up all the time?
Joined: 12/14/2011
MGoPoints: 95115
snarling wolverine
December 14th, 2023 at 2:24 PM ^
Here's the thing ... it really is immaterial which guy started it. What is at