WTKA Roundtable 11/30/2023: It Brings Out All of ItSeth
Things Discussed:
The Game post-op: OSU was closer because they didn't play insane. Were conservative and that worked for them.
Payoff for the light boxes all year.
Seth's monologue: Ohio State has plenty of hate, Michigan swerved to love, and I'm so happy that they won so we can talk about how the players love each other and love Harbaugh, and how the fans uplifted them.
Craig: That's Marxist!
Ari Wasserman comes clean: Signsgate was always just about hurting Michigan by changing the narrative.
McCarthy runs: obviously injured, OSU had some ideas to stop QB run, but M didn't plan the counters for that because they weren't going to run with him.
Michigan didn't learn the lesson of JTT: If you leave him unblocked for a second he will kill you.
Play-action is still missing. They are using it wrong.
Orjicat: OSU doesn't have numbers with a safety high.
McCarthy's read: He studied film on the robber, knew that guy was turning.
Last TD: Wasn't a bust, was Ryan Day adjusting to Michigan's Palms coverage.
Michael Barrett: shoulda been 1st team All-B10. Tommy Eichenberg was the soft spot Michigan attacked to win this game, and all the other coaches picked on him too.
Next year? Let's see what the portal brings, what the NFL takes. Michigan's D will be very good. Will JJ return? (25%?)
Sam: Michigan will only be going after guys who are proven commodities (not Tobias Merriweather).
Iowa: Atrocious offense, respect their defense minus their best player.
CFP: We want to face FSU not Oregon.
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:
The Usual Links:
Helpful iTunes subscribe link
General podcast feed link
Direct download link (right-click/save as)
What's with the theme music?
Thank God Michigan won, because they wanted to make it about hate, and today we're talking about love.
Seth, the direct download links MGoRadio 9.6 again.
Seth
November 30th, 2023 at 12:03 PM
^
I just checked the link and got today's radio show. Maybe a caching issue?
gsquared2123
November 30th, 2023 at 12:13 PM
^
Must be. Thanks, ill use the other options until o figure it out.
Erik_in_Dayton
November 30th, 2023 at 11:58 AM
^
I've had my suspicions about Seth ever since he snuck "the machinery of capitalism is oiled with the blood of the workers" into a Neck Sharpie.
(Apologies to The Simpsons for stealing that line.)
MGoBlue-querque
November 30th, 2023 at 12:31 PM
^
Craig Ross not mentioning Trotsky on today's episode cost me a lot of money!!
Indy Pete - Go Blue
November 30th, 2023 at 1:26 PM
^
You should have put your money on Marx - always a safe bet with Craig.
dragonchild
November 30th, 2023 at 12:09 PM
^
OSU deserves the L, but not for the way they played. The players are the only ones who probably deserved a W.*
Absolutely no way their fans appreciate, or even have the capability -- in terms of maturity or intellectualism -- of appreciating what OSU brought to The Game. And for all his brilliance Day is still a petty, cowardly shithead.
I couldn't enjoy the game or Seth's UFR because the whole thing, a well-played, hard-fought game, was thoroughly tainted with bullshit. And for that, may they shed many bitter tears over a loss they can't and won't comprehend. They care so much about football that they ruined football.
*Except for the rampant holding, which was so extreme it might've bit them a couple times -- at times they tried to grab instead of block and got moved.
evenyoubrutus
November 30th, 2023 at 12:52 PM
^
Are we really surprised by this? We've known for years that fanbase is the most spoiled and entitled on the planet. We've watched them scream at their players by their first names and call them every nasty name in the book for fumbling or dropping a pass. Collectively, they are pure narcissists. They cannot accept in any capacity that Michigan has surpassed them. They will rationalize beyond any coherent thoughts process to explain why they've lost. There's no joy in their lives and they will do everything to suck the joy out of yours. They expect everyone to submerse into their fantasy world completely or they will try to destroy your soul if you do not comply.
dragonchild
November 30th, 2023 at 1:15 PM
^
The fans, absolutely not surprised. No change, really. But the institution was more like an aristocracy or megacorp, amoral and immensely entitled but caring enough about decorum to take care to appear above the fray.
The rot was always there, but the shamelessness has spread to the core. The royal robes have fallen off to reveal a shit-encrusted swine.
Crime Reporter
November 30th, 2023 at 12:33 PM
^
Love always wins.
theytookourjobs
November 30th, 2023 at 12:36 PM
^
and it's all you need
Vasav
November 30th, 2023 at 12:49 PM
^
Seth's rant was beautiful
Hensons Mobile…
November 30th, 2023 at 12:38 PM
^
Ari Wasserman did not know the signs issue was just noise before Saturday. Do not give him that kind of credit. I take him at face value; he genuinely seems incapable of understanding football at a level beyond stats and stars.
I think he assumed, because of stars, that OSU really would have beaten Michigan in 2021 and 2022 but for the alleged cheating. But faced with the reality of Saturday, that is what made him realize that it is, in fact, possible that it's actually a Ryan Day issue, which is its own misunderstanding of the situation but that's another story.
I think he really was enlightened by Saturday.
FWIW before The Game he basically didn't make a prediction saying he really didn't know how it would play out. (No shit, Ari, none of us do. That's what it's called a prediction.)
STW P. Brabbs
November 30th, 2023 at 12:45 PM
^
Co-signed. Ari Wasserman is a glorified know-it-all message board poster whose two passions -- tOSU and recuiting stars -- happen to overlap.
He's a world-class twat.
Vasav
November 30th, 2023 at 12:47 PM
^
I think this is fair on Ari but it's wider - a lot of people don't KNOW this is crap because it is very convenient for them if it's not. I think Bielema, Rhule and co really believe that legal sign stealing gives less advantage than Stalions' sign stealing - not because of a thoughtful critique. And not because they're idiots, especially about football. But because they see one as normal and the other as suspicious and it's convenient to feel better about themselves vs Michigan if it's just the signs.
We also have similar blind spots, which is why I purposely wasn't as confident signs didn't matter...until the AP, SI and Yahoo articles. At which point it is very clear that whatever advantage Stalions got, it wasn't major. Klatt - who really is a neutral observer, not a Michigan guy but not an M-hater - also seems to think it was overblown so that makes me both trust him more and believe that we're right.
But yea, Wasserman and CFB nerds are folks who look at paper, not Xs and Os, but stars and math models, and think they should tell the whole story. They want to be the next moneyball generation. And I LOVED moneyball - but we have to recognize the limitations of statistics, and know Goodhart's law, and remember the point of a football game is to win and you win by scoring more points than the opponent. Every other stat just helps explain how you won or predict your winning - stars matter but they're not destiny.
Kapitan Howard
November 30th, 2023 at 2:25 PM
^
I hadn't heard of Goodhart's law before, so I looked it up. I'm glad I did because it's such a succinct way to describe so many phenomena you end up seeing in the corporate world. For those of you like me who were unfamiliar:
Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes
LB
November 30th, 2023 at 2:37 PM
^
Beilema and Rhule may not be idiots directly, but if they believe one is different than the other they are ignorant, and if they hold D1 head coaching position being woefully ignorant of a football issue makes them idiots.
LeCheezus
November 30th, 2023 at 1:41 PM
^
He is just emblematic of the year round football fan that you see at a lot of the year in and year out playoff contenders. What do you when you live and die by the success of your program, yet there is only actual football for 8.5 months out of the year? Well, you turn recruiting into a whole new game to "win" so you can cheer on your team year round.
That means getting the most guys with the highest stars - ignoring the fact that all of those rankings are basically about 10 people's opinions thrown into a blender that supposedly spit out something we are supposed to consider as measurable quantitative data. When you truly believe this is actual data, I can easily see why on the OSU side you can look at the last two years and say "How on earth did we lose to these guys? Something must be up."
I'm not going to go full on "stars don't matter", but other things DO ALSO matter.
Roster construction - Getting four 4-5 star receivers every year makes your class ranking look awesome, but after 3 years in a row of that, it's useless, because you can't put 10 receivers out on the field at the same time. Practice snaps are also limited. So, you've ensured you will have one badass receiver room at all times, but your overall talent ranking is inflated because you literally cannot use all of those guys to their potential.
Player development - Seems obvious, but often ignored by the folks who focus only on stars. IMO, OSU is really lacking those 3 star guys (frequently from Ohio) who don't really come on until years 4 or 5.
Coaching/Playing Style - Maybe a high powered offense that focuses on wide recevering the opponent to death might not be the best
This post first appeared on
Mgoblog, please read the originial post:
here
gsquared2123
November 30th, 2023 at 11:55 AM ^
Seth, the direct download links MGoRadio 9.6 again.
Joined: 06/17/2011
MGoPoints: 2613
Seth
November 30th, 2023 at 12:03 PM ^
I just checked the link and got today's radio show. Maybe a caching issue?
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 144795
gsquared2123
November 30th, 2023 at 12:13 PM ^
Must be. Thanks, ill use the other options until o figure it out.
Joined: 06/17/2011
MGoPoints: 2613
Erik_in_Dayton
November 30th, 2023 at 11:58 AM ^
I've had my suspicions about Seth ever since he snuck "the machinery of capitalism is oiled with the blood of the workers" into a Neck Sharpie.
(Apologies to The Simpsons for stealing that line.)
Joined: 12/03/2008
MGoPoints: 56570
MGoBlue-querque
November 30th, 2023 at 12:31 PM ^
Craig Ross not mentioning Trotsky on today's episode cost me a lot of money!!
Joined: 12/05/2012
MGoPoints: 10420
Indy Pete - Go Blue
November 30th, 2023 at 1:26 PM ^
You should have put your money on Marx - always a safe bet with Craig.
Joined: 01/23/2018
MGoPoints: 138906
dragonchild
November 30th, 2023 at 12:09 PM ^
OSU deserves the L, but not for the way they played. The players are the only ones who probably deserved a W.*
Absolutely no way their fans appreciate, or even have the capability -- in terms of maturity or intellectualism -- of appreciating what OSU brought to The Game. And for all his brilliance Day is still a petty, cowardly shithead.
I couldn't enjoy the game or Seth's UFR because the whole thing, a well-played, hard-fought game, was thoroughly tainted with bullshit. And for that, may they shed many bitter tears over a loss they can't and won't comprehend. They care so much about football that they ruined football.
*Except for the rampant holding, which was so extreme it might've bit them a couple times -- at times they tried to grab instead of block and got moved.
Joined: 10/13/2011
MGoPoints: 54401
evenyoubrutus
November 30th, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^
Are we really surprised by this? We've known for years that fanbase is the most spoiled and entitled on the planet. We've watched them scream at their players by their first names and call them every nasty name in the book for fumbling or dropping a pass. Collectively, they are pure narcissists. They cannot accept in any capacity that Michigan has surpassed them. They will rationalize beyond any coherent thoughts process to explain why they've lost. There's no joy in their lives and they will do everything to suck the joy out of yours. They expect everyone to submerse into their fantasy world completely or they will try to destroy your soul if you do not comply.
Joined: 11/04/2008
MGoPoints: 175047
dragonchild
November 30th, 2023 at 1:15 PM ^
The fans, absolutely not surprised. No change, really. But the institution was more like an aristocracy or megacorp, amoral and immensely entitled but caring enough about decorum to take care to appear above the fray.
The rot was always there, but the shamelessness has spread to the core. The royal robes have fallen off to reveal a shit-encrusted swine.
Joined: 10/13/2011
MGoPoints: 54401
Crime Reporter
November 30th, 2023 at 12:33 PM ^
Love always wins.
Joined: 12/19/2008
MGoPoints: 19086
theytookourjobs
November 30th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
and it's all you need
Joined: 11/24/2008
MGoPoints: 9857
Vasav
November 30th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
Seth's rant was beautiful
Joined: 12/13/2009
MGoPoints: 15814
Hensons Mobile…
November 30th, 2023 at 12:38 PM ^
Ari Wasserman did not know the signs issue was just noise before Saturday. Do not give him that kind of credit. I take him at face value; he genuinely seems incapable of understanding football at a level beyond stats and stars.
I think he assumed, because of stars, that OSU really would have beaten Michigan in 2021 and 2022 but for the alleged cheating. But faced with the reality of Saturday, that is what made him realize that it is, in fact, possible that it's actually a Ryan Day issue, which is its own misunderstanding of the situation but that's another story.
I think he really was enlightened by Saturday.
FWIW before The Game he basically didn't make a prediction saying he really didn't know how it would play out. (No shit, Ari, none of us do. That's what it's called a prediction.)
Joined: 09/12/2019
MGoPoints: 31734
STW P. Brabbs
November 30th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^
Co-signed. Ari Wasserman is a glorified know-it-all message board poster whose two passions -- tOSU and recuiting stars -- happen to overlap.
He's a world-class twat.
Joined: 08/27/2008
MGoPoints: 3806
Vasav
November 30th, 2023 at 12:47 PM ^
I think this is fair on Ari but it's wider - a lot of people don't KNOW this is crap because it is very convenient for them if it's not. I think Bielema, Rhule and co really believe that legal sign stealing gives less advantage than Stalions' sign stealing - not because of a thoughtful critique. And not because they're idiots, especially about football. But because they see one as normal and the other as suspicious and it's convenient to feel better about themselves vs Michigan if it's just the signs.
We also have similar blind spots, which is why I purposely wasn't as confident signs didn't matter...until the AP, SI and Yahoo articles. At which point it is very clear that whatever advantage Stalions got, it wasn't major. Klatt - who really is a neutral observer, not a Michigan guy but not an M-hater - also seems to think it was overblown so that makes me both trust him more and believe that we're right.
But yea, Wasserman and CFB nerds are folks who look at paper, not Xs and Os, but stars and math models, and think they should tell the whole story. They want to be the next moneyball generation. And I LOVED moneyball - but we have to recognize the limitations of statistics, and know Goodhart's law, and remember the point of a football game is to win and you win by scoring more points than the opponent. Every other stat just helps explain how you won or predict your winning - stars matter but they're not destiny.
Joined: 12/13/2009
MGoPoints: 15814
Kapitan Howard
November 30th, 2023 at 2:25 PM ^
I hadn't heard of Goodhart's law before, so I looked it up. I'm glad I did because it's such a succinct way to describe so many phenomena you end up seeing in the corporate world. For those of you like me who were unfamiliar:
Joined: 07/30/2009
MGoPoints: 5908
LB
November 30th, 2023 at 2:37 PM ^
Beilema and Rhule may not be idiots directly, but if they believe one is different than the other they are ignorant, and if they hold D1 head coaching position being woefully ignorant of a football issue makes them idiots.
Joined: 09/26/2009
MGoPoints: 22104
LeCheezus
November 30th, 2023 at 1:41 PM ^
He is just emblematic of the year round football fan that you see at a lot of the year in and year out playoff contenders. What do you when you live and die by the success of your program, yet there is only actual football for 8.5 months out of the year? Well, you turn recruiting into a whole new game to "win" so you can cheer on your team year round.
That means getting the most guys with the highest stars - ignoring the fact that all of those rankings are basically about 10 people's opinions thrown into a blender that supposedly spit out something we are supposed to consider as measurable quantitative data. When you truly believe this is actual data, I can easily see why on the OSU side you can look at the last two years and say "How on earth did we lose to these guys? Something must be up."
I'm not going to go full on "stars don't matter", but other things DO ALSO matter.
Roster construction - Getting four 4-5 star receivers every year makes your class ranking look awesome, but after 3 years in a row of that, it's useless, because you can't put 10 receivers out on the field at the same time. Practice snaps are also limited. So, you've ensured you will have one badass receiver room at all times, but your overall talent ranking is inflated because you literally cannot use all of those guys to their potential.
Player development - Seems obvious, but often ignored by the folks who focus only on stars. IMO, OSU is really lacking those 3 star guys (frequently from Ohio) who don't really come on until years 4 or 5.
Coaching/Playing Style - Maybe a high powered offense that focuses on wide recevering the opponent to death might not be the best