WTKA Roundtable 1/26/2023: Coach Craig RossSethJanuary 26th, 2023 at 11:09 AM
Things discussed:
What are we looking for in a new QB coach? Brian: Harbaugh can be himself, need a recruiter. Seth: Shoot your shot because a superb OC/QB candidate, see if you can steal an arguably #1 person because they get a chance to run this machine. If you can't do that, grab Partridge and move Jay to QBs. Floor is still good, ceiling worth exploring.
Jay Harbaugh Appreciation Hour: Funny how he's so much more like his uncle than his dad.
Michigan on the bubble: Teams there are like Pitt, which we beat! Zero Quad 1 victories, lost their shot to make a run when Jett went down.
Probably lost a chance to bring Jett back last year because he's looking like a lottery pick now.
How do they get off the treadmill? They've recruited some guys, need to develop their guards.
Hunter talk: Settling for 2PJs because he gets hacked like crazy, doesn't want to bully his way in, and because our Gs aren't able to get the ball to him down low.
Purdue? Plausible, more plausible if they had Jett.
During the break Craig makes an insane case that we should just not talk about ever again.
Portal talk? Football this year was a bit of an outlier because Stanford collapsed and Michigan was in the perfect position to do something about it.
Next year? Give Llewellin the option to return, MAAAAAYBE get Jett back? Gotta hit the portal for wings anyways. Might also get development from Khayat, and a big jump from Bufkin. Just not rebuilding your backcourt every year would be a way off the treadmill.
Long term: Guards matter. Great teams have continuity and then add a difference-maker. If Howard recruited his point guard when he came here, they'd be so much better right now. If they held onto DeJulius they'd be fine too. Who'd they get? Nobody in 2019, Zeb Jackson in 2020.
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment two is here. You can watch the video here:
MGoBlog Roundtable https://t.co/M2h7WFSeHJ
— The Michigan Insider (@michiganinsider) January 26, 2023
Who would have thought that Colin Castleton would have performed as well for Florida as he has?
KRK
January 26th, 2023 at 11:50 AM
^
Brian mentioned Harbaugh can coach the QBs, but prior to Weiss we've not seen much development out of the QBs during the entire JH tenure. We've basically seen regression and transfers. I'm not sure having Harbaugh coach the QBs is somehow a guarantee that our QBs will get better.
bsand2053
January 26th, 2023 at 11:58 AM
^
Rudock and Speight both got better during their only and first years as starters, respectively. The malicious hit Speight took against Purdue derailed any progress he could have made the next year.
But yeah, a lot of evidence to the contrary, starting with Shea
KRK
January 26th, 2023 at 12:15 PM
^
Yeah, and Rudock was a one-season improvement from a 5th year guy. Who had been in an Iowa offense. So I'm not sure how much was Harbaugh and how much was a guy who had been held back at Iowa.
Speight is always a what-if, because those injuries were gnarly. But the rest of the list is not good. Milton, Shea, McCaffrey, Peters, Malzone, Cade. It may not be fair to put Cade on that list but he didn't improve much and then transferred.
jmblue
January 26th, 2023 at 12:59 PM
^
Shea is the glaring example of a guy not getting better. Whether that was due to his injury, coaching, or a lack of offseason prep, is anyone's guess.
For the rest, it's hard to say how well we did or didn't develop them, since they essentially all left after one season of seeing the field (which was often just a few games).
Overall, I'd say we had good QB play in 2015, '16, '18, '21 and '22 and subpar play in '17, '19 and '20.
matty blue
January 26th, 2023 at 1:15 PM
^
all those guys (except patterson) transferred because they couldn't beat out the competition.
and saying that cade "didn't improve much" is just silly.
also - malzone? seriously?
KRK
January 26th, 2023 at 1:45 PM
^
I think you're proving my point. Guys transferred because they couldn't play (they didn't improve in a lot of cases) and then the guys that stayed never got better. So we had average-at-best QB play for a good 4-5 year stretch.
Did Cade improve much? He looked the same or worse this season than he did in 2021. He didn't get drastically better throughout the 2021 season. He was a good QB, he never got better than good.
Malzone was a 4* recruit. He wasn't some flier. Then he left. My point was about both a lack of improvement and transfers and Malzone transferred.
bsand2053
January 26th, 2023 at 11:55 AM
^
Craig was also dismissed when he said Caleb Houstan couldn’t shoot. Guy knows a thing or two about basketball!!!!
jdraman
January 26th, 2023 at 12:44 PM
^
Caleb Houstan couldn't shoot? A player who shot nearly 36% from 3pt as a college freshman couldn't shoot? Yeah ok. The kid actually hit threes at a good clip. Houstan way underperformed his recruiting ranking that can't be denied, but the level of criticism he receives from many here is out of order. Especially when Diabate equally underperformed his recruiting ranking but somehow escapes loud and hyperbolic criticism.
Meanwhile, Craig and Sam constantly talk about how Kobe Bufkin has beautiful shooting mechanics and is going to put it all together, yet Bufkin continues to shoot sub-30% from 3pt. Not the best example to use to prop up someone's basketball smarts.
Goblueman
January 26th, 2023 at 1:28 PM
^
I basically agree..FWIW- Caleb 35.5 % (3s)..38.4 % overall...Jett 43% ,38%..combination of to high expectations + 3-4% lower shooting %..
ShadowStorm33
January 26th, 2023 at 12:21 PM
^
Completely forgot about DeJulius. His stat lines make me sad :(
SEASON TEAM GP GS MIN FG% 3P% FT% OR DR REB AST STL TO PTS
2021-22 CIN 33 33 28.6 40.9 29.7 82.4 0.4 2.4 2.8 2.6 0.7 1.6 14.5
2022-23 CIN 21 21 30.6 44.0 38.6 83.6 0.2 1.8 2.0 4.2 1.0 1.7 14.5
matty blue
January 26th, 2023 at 1:25 PM
^
exactly. i get the disappointment that frankie collins left, but come on - the likelihood that he stuck for four years was...low.
but dejulius' departure was (imho) really inexplicable...if was still here we would be talking about frankie the way we talk about kam chatman or mark donnal.
VintageRandy
January 26th, 2023 at 12:24 PM
^
Thinking out loud here: is QB development even that important anymore? Due to the proliferation of private QB coaches and summer camps, QB recruits are getting to college more polished than ever before, especially those in the 5* range. Is it more important to focus your energy on recruiting those 5-10 prospects per year that are ready-made for college and shape your offense to highlight their strengths?
When you think about some of the most impactful college QBs in recent years, many seemed to display elite decision making and accuracy very early on (Bryce Young, Caleb Williams, Trevor Lawrence) or unlocked their potential through offensive design (Joe Burrow, CJ Stroud, Mac Jones, Justin Fields).
KRK
January 26th, 2023 at 12:40 PM
^
I guess if you know you're getting a 5* guy every year, then it's not as important. All the guys you listed were high 4* or 5* guys, other than Jones. And they all were at programs that have insane talent and run systems that get guys wide open and make reads easy. Michigan doesn't run a system like any of those programs and doesn't have the same talent at the skill positions.
So if you're Michigan and you can't get a guy like JJ every year, and you're relying on middle range 4* or 3* QB recruits, then development is all you have left.
Cade had a QB coach through most of HS and so have a lot of the QB recruits over the last 7-10 years. None of them panned out.
wolvorback
January 26th, 2023 at 12:25 PM
^
Who is the internal guy that keeps being referenced as a potential qb coach? To me, it doesn't sound like he is currently an on-field assistant coach
Toby Flenderson
January 26th, 2023 at 1:08 PM
^
Jay Harbaugh
MGoRhinoAZ
January 26th, 2023 at 1:17 PM
^
Kirk Campbell is who I believe he is referring to. Currently an analyst I believe...
VintageRandy
January 26th, 2023 at 1:18 PM
^
Kirk Campbell is correct - current offensive analyst.
Thanks. After reading about Campbell in that post, the thing that jumps out to me is that there is no mention of him as a recruiter. First and foremost, I think that whoever gets the job must be a high level recruiter
KC Wolve
January 26th, 2023 at 1:43 PM
This post first appeared on
Mgoblog, please read the originial post:
here
VAWolverine
January 26th, 2023 at 11:43 AM ^
Who would have thought that Colin Castleton would have performed as well for Florida as he has?
Joined: 11/06/2008
MGoPoints: 8237
KRK
January 26th, 2023 at 11:50 AM ^
Brian mentioned Harbaugh can coach the QBs, but prior to Weiss we've not seen much development out of the QBs during the entire JH tenure. We've basically seen regression and transfers. I'm not sure having Harbaugh coach the QBs is somehow a guarantee that our QBs will get better.
Joined: 07/17/2008
MGoPoints: 2961
bsand2053
January 26th, 2023 at 11:58 AM ^
Rudock and Speight both got better during their only and first years as starters, respectively. The malicious hit Speight took against Purdue derailed any progress he could have made the next year.
But yeah, a lot of evidence to the contrary, starting with Shea
Joined: 04/14/2010
MGoPoints: 17402
KRK
January 26th, 2023 at 12:15 PM ^
Yeah, and Rudock was a one-season improvement from a 5th year guy. Who had been in an Iowa offense. So I'm not sure how much was Harbaugh and how much was a guy who had been held back at Iowa.
Speight is always a what-if, because those injuries were gnarly. But the rest of the list is not good. Milton, Shea, McCaffrey, Peters, Malzone, Cade. It may not be fair to put Cade on that list but he didn't improve much and then transferred.
Joined: 07/17/2008
MGoPoints: 2961
jmblue
January 26th, 2023 at 12:59 PM ^
Shea is the glaring example of a guy not getting better. Whether that was due to his injury, coaching, or a lack of offseason prep, is anyone's guess.
For the rest, it's hard to say how well we did or didn't develop them, since they essentially all left after one season of seeing the field (which was often just a few games).
Overall, I'd say we had good QB play in 2015, '16, '18, '21 and '22 and subpar play in '17, '19 and '20.
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 88673
matty blue
January 26th, 2023 at 1:15 PM ^
all those guys (except patterson) transferred because they couldn't beat out the competition.
and saying that cade "didn't improve much" is just silly.
also - malzone? seriously?
Joined: 08/01/2008
MGoPoints: 28895
KRK
January 26th, 2023 at 1:45 PM ^
I think you're proving my point. Guys transferred because they couldn't play (they didn't improve in a lot of cases) and then the guys that stayed never got better. So we had average-at-best QB play for a good 4-5 year stretch.
Did Cade improve much? He looked the same or worse this season than he did in 2021. He didn't get drastically better throughout the 2021 season. He was a good QB, he never got better than good.
Malzone was a 4* recruit. He wasn't some flier. Then he left. My point was about both a lack of improvement and transfers and Malzone transferred.
Joined: 07/17/2008
MGoPoints: 2961
bsand2053
January 26th, 2023 at 11:55 AM ^
Craig was also dismissed when he said Caleb Houstan couldn’t shoot. Guy knows a thing or two about basketball!!!!
Joined: 04/14/2010
MGoPoints: 17402
jdraman
January 26th, 2023 at 12:44 PM ^
Caleb Houstan couldn't shoot? A player who shot nearly 36% from 3pt as a college freshman couldn't shoot? Yeah ok. The kid actually hit threes at a good clip. Houstan way underperformed his recruiting ranking that can't be denied, but the level of criticism he receives from many here is out of order. Especially when Diabate equally underperformed his recruiting ranking but somehow escapes loud and hyperbolic criticism.
Meanwhile, Craig and Sam constantly talk about how Kobe Bufkin has beautiful shooting mechanics and is going to put it all together, yet Bufkin continues to shoot sub-30% from 3pt. Not the best example to use to prop up someone's basketball smarts.
Joined: 10/23/2019
MGoPoints: 11280
Goblueman
January 26th, 2023 at 1:28 PM ^
I basically agree..FWIW- Caleb 35.5 % (3s)..38.4 % overall...Jett 43% ,38%..combination of to high expectations + 3-4% lower shooting %..
Joined: 11/09/2009
MGoPoints: 3398
ShadowStorm33
January 26th, 2023 at 12:21 PM ^
Completely forgot about DeJulius. His stat lines make me sad :(
SEASON TEAM GP GS MIN FG% 3P% FT% OR DR REB AST STL TO PTS
2021-22 CIN 33 33 28.6 40.9 29.7 82.4 0.4 2.4 2.8 2.6 0.7 1.6 14.5
2022-23 CIN 21 21 30.6 44.0 38.6 83.6 0.2 1.8 2.0 4.2 1.0 1.7 14.5
Joined: 07/22/2008
MGoPoints: 15306
matty blue
January 26th, 2023 at 1:25 PM ^
exactly. i get the disappointment that frankie collins left, but come on - the likelihood that he stuck for four years was...low.
but dejulius' departure was (imho) really inexplicable...if was still here we would be talking about frankie the way we talk about kam chatman or mark donnal.
Joined: 08/01/2008
MGoPoints: 28895
VintageRandy
January 26th, 2023 at 12:24 PM ^
Thinking out loud here: is QB development even that important anymore? Due to the proliferation of private QB coaches and summer camps, QB recruits are getting to college more polished than ever before, especially those in the 5* range. Is it more important to focus your energy on recruiting those 5-10 prospects per year that are ready-made for college and shape your offense to highlight their strengths?
When you think about some of the most impactful college QBs in recent years, many seemed to display elite decision making and accuracy very early on (Bryce Young, Caleb Williams, Trevor Lawrence) or unlocked their potential through offensive design (Joe Burrow, CJ Stroud, Mac Jones, Justin Fields).
Joined: 04/04/2019
MGoPoints: 4692
KRK
January 26th, 2023 at 12:40 PM ^
I guess if you know you're getting a 5* guy every year, then it's not as important. All the guys you listed were high 4* or 5* guys, other than Jones. And they all were at programs that have insane talent and run systems that get guys wide open and make reads easy. Michigan doesn't run a system like any of those programs and doesn't have the same talent at the skill positions.
So if you're Michigan and you can't get a guy like JJ every year, and you're relying on middle range 4* or 3* QB recruits, then development is all you have left.
Cade had a QB coach through most of HS and so have a lot of the QB recruits over the last 7-10 years. None of them panned out.
Joined: 07/17/2008
MGoPoints: 2961
wolvorback
January 26th, 2023 at 12:25 PM ^
Who is the internal guy that keeps being referenced as a potential qb coach? To me, it doesn't sound like he is currently an on-field assistant coach
Joined: 11/01/2008
MGoPoints: 2898
Toby Flenderson
January 26th, 2023 at 1:08 PM ^
Jay Harbaugh
Joined: 01/16/2012
MGoPoints: 19598
MGoRhinoAZ
January 26th, 2023 at 1:17 PM ^
Kirk Campbell is who I believe he is referring to. Currently an analyst I believe...
Joined: 06/23/2017
MGoPoints: 1486
VintageRandy
January 26th, 2023 at 1:18 PM ^
Kirk Campbell is correct - current offensive analyst.
see this very helpful board post for more:
https://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/potential-co-ocqb-coach-candidates
Joined: 04/04/2019
MGoPoints: 4692
wolvorback
January 26th, 2023 at 1:43 PM ^
Thanks. After reading about Campbell in that post, the thing that jumps out to me is that there is no mention of him as a recruiter. First and foremost, I think that whoever gets the job must be a high level recruiter
Joined: 11/01/2008
MGoPoints: 2898
KC Wolve
January 26th, 2023 at 1:43 PM