Introduction

I recently had the privilege of interviewing Gilberto Strapazon, an accomplished occultist and author with nearly 50 years of experience exploring diverse magical traditions. Born in Brazil, Gilberto has dedicated his life to studying the occult through direct experimentation, ritual Practice, and constant learning. He has worked extensively with angels, demons, and spirits from traditions like Solomonic magic, the Goetia, and Afro-Brazilian religions.

In our expansive interview, Gilberto generously shares hard-won lessons and cautions garnered over a lifetime of magical practice. He emphasizes the importance of self-knowledge, respect for spirits, and disciplined personal development on the path to spiritual evolution. While warning against the dangers of ego and impatience, Gilberto advocates learning from mistakes and finding resonance with traditions that align with one’s sincerely-held motivations.

I’m excited to present this interview to readers hungry for the perspective of a seasoned, open-minded occultist. The insights Gilberto shares on topics like beginner errors, pacts with spirits, and the interplay of magic with psychology are sure to enlighten and inspire dedicated seekers of esoteric wisdom. Join us as we delve into the mind of a magical explorer with decades of experience.

Interview

PAA: What specific branch of occultism do you focus on in your writing and practices?

Gilberto: To talk about a branch means we need to understand a bit more about what this may be. Many people look for magick as something they choose an area, like a product they buy at the store, choose one and that is expected to do most of their needs they after. For example, for washing clothes, that means soap and people will choose by brand and price, and for sure what offers white clothes or helps to remove dirt. But still is just soap.

But cleaning clothes is more than just selecting a soap and using it by hand or using a washing machine. It is needed a bit more to really have the desired results or just destroy that T-shirt you loved using the wrong approach.

One needs to learn the basics, and how much water to use, each fabric has different structures and needs additional care during the process, some may dry in shadow, and others can be put under the direct light of the sun. Color fabric may lose its appearance due to wrong soap or just the sunlight for example, while others just will need additional light to improve the process. And for sure, certain clothes also need to be hand rubbed clean, especially the collar and cuffs of shirts for example. Some soaps remove any dirt but that expensive shirt of yours will only last 3-4 washes. Taking the garment out of the washing machine and scrubbing by hand may be better and will remove specific soils. Uhm, some people’s underwear needs acid for sure. LOL… Or else be rich to wear clothes a few times and throw them away.

All this means experience about how to do a serious and decent way for washing your clothes. Get the idea? I may be talking about cooking or whatever. For decades I’m writing about how to do this, sharing practical experiences I had decades of learning and also observed with colleagues around the world and I also used to add for my practices and more learning for sure.

So this is my main branch, is the “why”, for “what” and only then “how” to do the magickal experience as part of our life seeking for so many results, like learning, becoming a better person, evolution and for sure, practical results that many people focus about.

This is why I became a kind of advisor, a counselor, a guide about the way in magick and for common people for sure.

People from the most varied areas seek me for guidance, magicians, witches, priests, Satanists, Luciferianists, ATR (African traditional religions), etc. first because I have experience in so many areas, but most of the time is about “practice” about some topics few people have gone. So I share my practical experience that regardless of the area of expertise, maintains similar principles, so it doesn’t matter to me whether we are talking about like meditation, shamanism, sorcery, angels, dæmons from Goetia, Lwas or Orixas (ATR) or nordic gods to cite some.

That’s what I mostly write about, how to do magic. And I have a typical approach. I’m never the guy who talks about only the nice features, the fluffy bunny mystic newer approach, and the good opportunities with each method. I always add comments about the risks, the troubles, and what may be wrong too as I lose a long time in my life due to my errors, so I present that to help people to avoid the same mistakes, from mine and also from others colleagues I observed their work.

Because of this among decades at forums like StudioArcanis plus others at Yahoo and Geocities, I have saved in my computer many posts I made, and that are ideas to write more sometimes or even new books. Because of this at my archives, I have thousands of such replies stored, most are long texts like this one or just an idea I presented and found to be useful later. See another example, I have a text file with ideas for videos on my Youtube channel. That text is currently a hundred 90 pages, but I only made 10% of the notes presented, currently some 280 videos. I have a lot to talk about and write for sure.

I certainly have favorite areas and in the last many years, I have dedicated myself to writing about magickal practice, meditation, human aspects related to spiritual development, and for sure about the ancient grimoires, mainly in the Solomonic line, in short, angels and dæmons. And within that, I’m currently most at planetary angelic magic, Goetia, Shemhamphorash, Grimorium Verum, Psalms, 6&7 Books of Moses, and some others related but these four are for sure the main focus in the books I’m writing now.

PAA: How long have you been studying and practicing occultism?

Gilberto: I’m age 61 now, so I have a long time of study and practice and for sure, a personal life, and this also is related to life changes in so many ways. This includes personal life, marriages, formal jobs (I was a senior software developer for 4 decades), and learning different spiritual areas too.

I started as a young teenager in the 70s, so I count nearly 49 years since I started my studies. As a teen I did the most obvious, starting to do practices even without a little study, even with the books, many errors for sure, but also serious interesting results from early, and few people I knew around the world had such ones. I saw things few people experienced.

Living in a country (Brazil) where decent books were rare at that time, was hard to find someone with experience who was willing to teach because there were a lot of exhibitionists, the famous posers. So took many years to find the best materials and serious groups so I started to learn better in the endings 80s. Only later I found to learn serious discipline and formal approaches and so I started doing coherent work.

I always cited I have two main epochs in my life. In the first years did all kinds of wrong acts, plus all kinds of life troubles not being able to deal with family, society, etc. but I always was a good worker, and a seriously recognized professional, just my personal life was a mess.

Then, in 1988, I became a sannyasin, discovering serious meditation practices, making many therapies too, and dropping the past and starting anew, for me, I have been born again. Since then, I has a big change in life so become a serious study with formal approaches. This second part of life is what I do up today, working with a serious proposal for my life, being aware of others and what I have to do in life.

What I do is talk about the energies, the magick in life, why and for what we are here and work to guide people to find their way too. It’s almost an entire life doing this. 

PAA: Do you approach occultism and magic in the same rigor and depth as you do business/systems analysis projects?

Gilberto: For sure both areas require study and formal methods, and the way we approach it affects what kind of results we get.

For software development, I always was the person with the books and manuals around, the one who read all the books and used them for practice so from an early age I was the technical support guy for the software developers team developing for them advanced tools and teaching others.

The same for occultism and magic. This is why some of my customers are priests, magicians of most areas, witches and warlocks, Satanists, Luciferians, ATR (African Traditional Religions, etc). As I have an entire life in so many areas, I have a lot of practical experience, that’s why I guide so many colleagues who have even more experience than me, but without as many varieties as I could get to know and practice.

I’m not an academic nor an armchair magician. The practice is all my life. Be software development or the occult areas. I dislike knowing everything by head as many do. I learn how it works, so I know what I do, but I never will cite a book by the head, as I know what a book is and I will open it to cite if needed I love to give credits too, always deserved for sure honoring the authors. If not needed, I just open my mouth and talk even for hours about something without worrying about the exact phrase in some book.

Being the books guy I made almost everything with computers too, since the 70s decade, with IBM’s mainframe computers, that big size ones. That time was like being in a Star Trek movie, with a lot of panels and lights.

Same for the occult and magick. I always used to study and try in practice what was cited in the books or even in a talk from a master.

I’m most a practical one but I always first read the manual before anything. Because of this, I have a serious study area, lots of books and always researching to improve and learn more. I have an always increasingly decent library for my research, just I’m not at least that armchair magician, as I study for sure, just I won’t be only at the books.

For sure methods, systems, etc. are needed. I commented above about errors in magic practices, so I did this too in the early ages. For a long time, I was just the one who learned a name or symbol and tried to use it without any other study.

This is why I also learned a lot, really opening unknown gates and entering those realms calling “Hi there!” Yes, I did this a lot, this is why I also learned about many areas and realms as I always was respectful, asking for learning so I’m glad many times I found nice spirits. For sure, some results were really bad for me. All this is practical learning.

Then I found to prepare myself better, so many areas I study a lot before trying a different method or system.

PAA: What is your view on the interconnections between magic, spirituality and human psychology/well-being?

Gilberto: In practical ways, those areas interconnect so I think is needed to work someway at those aspects too. I’m a Universalist, for me the entire Universe is God, and is life all interconnected. So I don’t mind about different practices if what is being done guides you to become better and reach evolution whatever the way you perceive it. Everything is connected.

This is why so many areas will teach you about caring for your human body, what you eat, drink some kind of physical activity, etc. Then, to know better and learn to control your senses, hearing, taste, touch, and breathing, you have the basis to be in charge of the higher levels, emotions, mind, energy, etc.

Well-being is the mostly desired aspect for people, so each one may perceive this at many levels. To have a home, food, to be warm and safe is the basic. The difference is about being conscious. Here enter the other areas cited. Consciousness means to be able to perceive there are more, infinite ways, other possibilities, other realities. So we observe first the basic needs, but how we enjoy them is different. When someone perceives life as more than basic only needs, starts an inner pathway, to understand we are connected with whatever is around us.

To discover nature, the grace of life, and how our senses can be improved to find more in ourselves and also around us. So to connect to other levels and find we can become more and better. Still, this is at the human level. Discover to enjoy himself with pleasures, satisfy the flesh with more, and the mind with some distraction.

At this basic level is psychology and well-being most basic. Have care of the mind and body. Psychology helps one feel better about himself and with others, the society, family, groups of people, and the country’s cultures. Then some people may recognize that something more is around, that life means more than only body, mind, and social aspects. They start to discover spirituality.

Some will become just only mystics, with some idea about how life is sacred, the initial steps. Here most people will feel comfortable and this is what is expected from many, just to recognize there’s some kind of power inside us and above. Easy to understand why most will meet some kind of religion, that connects the basic aspects with some spiritual content.

But to become spiritual means to go ahead, search more, to feel curious about life. And again, this needs also to improve the basic aspects, some practices like meditation, the most basic needed, will show why and for what to have better food, learn to breathe, etc. will improve your senses and cyclically perceive more.

All these are ways to change one’s life. With magick, the idea is to change the world around, and this not always means any kind of psychological or spiritual development. We have the thaumaturgies, the ones who are after results, to be simple. Just move something in this or that way for something happens. It is just practical aspects.

On the other side, the theurgist who works toward inner changes looks for the divine, and because of this, they receive results. At some time both will meet most of the time. Just being practical will guide you to discover the spiritual. In the same way, by meditation, prayer, etc. one discovers the practical aspects.

Here we will find how important the methods, discipline, and discovering himself too. All these comments say that magic learning and practice are not related to any of these aspects cited above. Most people go after magic to change something, usually starting with the basic aspect of life, money, to find a job or a house, love or sex (sometimes both… LOL), the basics. Add healing, revenge, and power, and then some discover that magic helps the learning too and more, that a better control of the body and emotions works better.

This way, magic is not a shortcut to the other areas, but will help people to discover ways of self-development too.

PAA: Can you achieve magic and spiritual goals through ritual alone or is there a deeper wisdom and experience required?

Gilberto: We can certainly obtain results without further experience, but we must consider that the level or quality of the results obtained will hardly be the same. There are so many different ways to work with Magick, the same way you can go into a grocery store and buy a frozen pizza that you just heat. It will certainly never be the same as something prepared with the care of a chef.

Some even very simple operations can present immense risks. Something unfortunately very common, people disclose certain operations mainly with dangerous spirits, such as for example, dæmons, infernal spirits, and the spirits of the dead, which can even be easily called to perform a task and so often present quick results. But at what cost?

It is very common for us to be sought out by people who took the risk of easy solutions and became victims of secondary effects, which will often have a high cost to be solved in addition to harming their lives in so many areas.

A serious ritual needs to prepare, to choose what to do, a reason, and some objective the person is pointing for. This means to have goals we found in our mind and they need to be clear. No one seriously goes after without knowing what is being pursued. Here the need for a clear mind, to know. Remember the classical four aspects: “To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Keep Silent”. The experience become from trying, wrong choices, learning, trying again, improve himself.

PAA: As a “Doctor Honoris Causa” in Parapsychology, what areas of parapsychology are you most knowledgeable and interested in?

Gilberto: Parapsychology as I see is a basis or better, a result of what I do. I have two main areas of interest. First is the paranormal action of our energies. Thus, human capacity to perceive but also to consciously use their energy to influence objects, environments, and people. This is often confused with mediumship, which is the ability to communicate with spirits. Thus, capabilities such as touching something or a person even from a distance are one of many. An extreme example is the poltergeist effects that some people create, voluntary or not.

Another area of interest of mine is just one of the many techniques, “psychometry”, which is the ability to access the energies of a person, objects, or environment and in a certain way “read” their recorded memories or even use this as a kind of antenna to observe situations and related events. This is something I’ve used for decades in my activities, to connect with people anywhere in the world and so let’s say I see their lives, what they do, and their environment. It is not about telepathy, which would be the direct mental connection. On the other hand, I describe it as if I had a TV camera showing me the person’s life. I’ve done the same so many times just touching objects used by someone and these serve as an “antenna” to connect with the person and even observe situations that the object has a memory record.

PAA: Out of all these schools of thought and practice, which have had the greatest influence and impact on you? What are the core teachings you have taken from them?

Gilberto: Certainly, for me, natural magic is the basis of everything. But not just the visible nature, but the whole universe that is fantastic as quoted by Carlos Castañeda since his first books, especially “Voyage to Yxtlan” and “A Strange Reality” that influenced me a lot and I realized that what we know as a manifestation of existence is just a limited perception and we can go beyond that, know other realms and infinite possibilities.

From then on, and also with shamanic learning, I have a perception of divine magic, working with spirits, angels, dæmons, deities, etc., as all manifestations of life that are immense. This is why, long before any formal system of magic, I learned sorcery as defined by Castaneda and how to contact other planes and spirits even in an intuitive way. I certainly took huge risks, and made many mistakes, as I simply opened doors out of my curiosity but always in a respectful way.

The other important area for me is the meditation. Only after more than a decade, I discovered that in a way that made sense to me, so I learned to have a formal discipline and a “why to live”. Before I was more like a cartesian one, focused on the mind and the studies but always missed the soul part. With the oriental meditation practices, like Zen, plus all the other areas, I found that silence and the “nothing” throughout the extasis and found to be able to work with magic this way too.

Finally, ceremonial magic is the method that helps a lot to access other areas. For sure I’m able to do all that without any tool but I like to use such systems. I can take the time to evoke a spirit just by me, without any tool, but this means another lifestyle and I’m in the mundane world, so it is not practical. Just see for example the Taoist monks that make great magic works, even with great spiritual development, just have other ways to work with the magick and have results this way, and works best for more people too.

See I’m citing many areas I worked in for decades, each one helped a lot and for sure is needed to work each one separately not mixing practices because this is always a risk for sure. So to understand the basics, magic has universal principles, and each area helps in understanding the others.

That’s why I have clients who are students and practitioners of the most varied areas, witchcraft, sorcery, Solomonic, Satanists, Luciferians, priests of different ATR lines (African Traditional Religions), etc. In this case, I have the experience of both spiritual and ritualistic practices and that is what they come to learn with me, as I’m talking about decades of personal experience, I’ve had spiritual experiences that few have known, even at very extreme levels. That is, I have experience including personal life situations and working for companies as well.

So we have principles that apply to the most diverse areas, in addition to also having extensive experience about what we will be talking about.

PAA: As a Babalorixa, you learned deep knowledge of Candomble and West African Vodoun/Voodoo religion and magic. How has this influenced your overall occult and magical philosophy?

Gilberto: For sure in no way I learned that deep into that practices. We have a lot of people who know a lot better. But I keep in contact with priests and priestesses because this is an area that in practice does not have an exit door. Only I respectfully walked away, but the spirits are always trying to take me back to these practices. They are always trying to get me back into these practices.

In addition, that’s why, as I mentioned above, I have clients and even students who are priests in these areas. I comment a lot about the book “Ritual Offerings” edited by Aaron Leitch and published by Nephilim Press and such material few people wrote more about before.

My most important learning dealing with those areas was to never, but never more mess with some area that is not really in your heart. If you don’t love that, you may encounter bad times. The same for any practice you are not feeling to be part of, to have the desire in your heart.

So, I never was related to those ATR areas, I was only curious about these areas but it had very serious consequences. Each day we see people asking for the “best spirit” for something, but unaware that need to have a serious engagement, even to become part of that.

That missed me. I was just curious and got easily caught by charlatans too. It took me eleven years to leave. It was a spiritual trap for me and I was caught. But I always was serious and found to did all the needed work, practiced, learned, and so became a Babalorixa, only to have the most basic power to escape from that.

This is my opinion. ATR is very easy for anyone to get into, but there is no exit door. Because of this over the years, I helped some people to leave that area too because they were caught, most due to bad priests, and charlatans. What I comment on in the book “Ritual Offerings” is 99% of what no priests will tell you without being asked very explicitly. And make sure I haven’t broken any commitments of silence about what I comment.

ATR (African Tradicional Religions) is a great area, that deserves my most full respect. Remember people are different, so not all priests are well-meaning or honest. And in the West, many are just being stupid and don’t even know what they are doing so I comment that so many who do their self-promotion are not working with real spirits, but only with dead spirits who deceive a lot and pretend to be what they are not.

This also happens, for example, in Goetia where I see “pseudo-satanists” who are lazy to study and being deceived. Dead spirits can easily be obsessors and even quickly bring desired results, but they are deceiving the practitioner who may take a long time to realize that he has entered a very deep hole.

This is what I learned more. About to be deceived by spirits. I learned how much they could lie to you. And this is why any student of the occult needs to develop consciousness about himself and so get the good aspects and develop as a free one because any loyal spirit is just a partner. But never accept thy treat you or try to get your life for them.

PAA: You have practiced Freemasonry, Golden Dawn, and Rosicrucianism – how do these Western esoteric traditions compare in their teachings and practices? Which do you find most vital and meaningful?

Gilberto: What was most vital for me? Nothing of those despite learning so much. Each one is a great school for learning for sure. Freemasonry is a brotherhood that helps a lot about being human. Rosicrucian helped to discover a lot of learning. Golden Dawn is (for me) more a method that works.

Each one has good aspects and always is interesting to know people, how they think, and share their practices and life with others. I have had my path for decades, so such groups are just something I’m in, to share and learn, but not a personal goal. Just is something I like to be with.

PAA: Kemetic or ancient Egyptian spirituality – what key insights have you gained from studying this tradition? How has it influenced other aspects of your work?

Gilberto: I have a few to talk about. I learned with great ones, but I never developed more. Kemetic is the only area I work with a devotional religious feeling, I do daily prayers for decades, sometimes a ritual to honor them and I received a lot too.

The Egyptian deities are the ones who always helped me to keep on the spiritual path, despite any activity I do, and helped me to keep focus on my path despite all difficulties I have in life. This included the needed help to keep my sanity when I had troubles with the other areas. Despite working with other areas, for nearly three decades all the time was the Netjers, the Egyptian Gods were the ones who always presented me the light needed and helped me to reach the needed focus.

PAA: Bardon emphasized the importance of developing oneself spiritually and magically through meditation, a pure lifestyle, and initiation before engaging in evocation, in addition to of course gaining the skills from Initiation into Hermetics. Do you agree with this approach? Have the various traditions you have studied provided alternatives approaches?

Gilberto: Because I live in a country where decent books were rare until a few years ago, I discovered Bardon only in the early 90s decade. And I found what I was doing has many similar approaches.

So most of Bardon’s teaching I have done by myself before and found I was in a similar way of thought. So for sure, personal development is needed. I commented above, about learning about your body and mind, as we need this for a background for the spiritual and meditation work.

Nobody will achieve results without a minimum understanding of himself. And when working with evocation, all those aspects will become needed. We see a lot of “easy systems” that try to present magi results to people, but most of the time they will lack quality or even may discover they jumped from a plane without a parachute.

This is why so many people claim against magick, but we see they never did the basic learnings. This is why Bardon’s work is very important, as a serious workable method, not so easy and takes some years of working for each book, but this assures the needed aspects, to say so, the tools one needs to make the magick experience.

See, the magick experience is just this, a try, a search for how the knowledge and the tools may help each one learn how to use and have results in life, be spiritual or in the practical human aspects.

Citing a text from Jason Miller: “The mantras are not said, they are done. It takes action to make it work.”This is magick in practice. You discover the tools, but you need to learn how to use them. Other traditions may have different approaches. Some start just by practice, just the thaumaturgy was focused only on the energy and results. As a result, this also leads people to discover they will learn and evolve by themselves.

PAA: Being an admin for a group that focuses on the second of Franz Bardon’s books, PME, can you tell us anything about your own work with this book? You mentioned ongoing work with Goetia, Planetary and Angelic practices.

Gilberto: I can’t comment on it. I was invited to help as an admin due to my large time with groups. So I’m just starting to learn about that despite having worked with some of them but too far away from a decent level.

PAA: Following the previous question, what is your favored approach to working with spirits?

Gilberto: Easy. It’s the respectful approach. This must be for both sides. I started working blindly, with few materials for study and no guidance as cited before. Because of this, I made a lot of shortcuts but in my way, as I always use to be friendly with people, even stupid I’m sure, but I found to trying be friendly with the spirits someway worked too.

For sure I have bad times too, but most of the time due to not knowing the requisites. This resulted in I had some extremely horrifying stories lived with spirits too. I have learned with life, and I kept working and learned what works better.

Certainly, there are cases where it is necessary to be firm, some spirits can be cunning and difficult to work with. In this case, it is necessary that the magician also has true authority; it is not a matter of just using symbols and sacred names, but that this is part of himself.

Something I learned, about most spirits, like angels and dæmons are: they serve us, but they are not our slaves. We are certainly not their servants either. We know that in some areas of magic, there is a cult of dæmons, such as in demonolatry, Satanism, and even Luciferianism, but not everyone does that. Some Luciferian groups that I participated in, had this same vision, that the spirits work for and with us, but without submission on our part.

PAA: Do you have a plan as to what spirits you will be speaking with and working with, for example Nenad is working his way through the planetary spheres, while previously he focused on the 360 Spirits of the Earth Zone, is there a specific area that you find more interesting where you plan to spend your time?

Gilberto: I have a lifetime of work, and for sure I will never work with all areas I desire as each needs time to learn, develop and explore. Nenad Talerman has done fantastic work for sure, and this is what I’m talking about. To have focus and explore important areas.

So I have my preferred areas for sure too. Some are private (inner work) and I don’t post materials about, for example, sorcery, oriental traditions, Egypt, and many others that I keep for myself only. Many of that I use in my professional work for people, but only my clients know what I’m doing.

So for a long time ahead I will keep talking about angels and dæmons areas, for I have books being written too, but I’m far away from all I want to explore more in this life.

PAA: Has your experience with various spirits matched what has been written in the various grimoires or have you had very differing experiences?

Gilberto: This is a really interesting question I like to comment on. I have some visions related to that and even a few very closer but always about what I was doing and the needed information to receive.

That are just symbols related to the ideas each spirit area presents. So we find the grimoires descriptions not exact, but that present an idea to think about correspondences. See, for example, the images of Jupiter’s spirits cited in the grimoires. Here’s Francis Barret’s text:

“Their forms are, a king, with a sword drawn, riding on a stag. A man, wearing a mitre, with long raiment. A maid, with a laurel crown, adorned with flowers. A bull; a stag; a peacock. An azure garment; a sword; a box-tree.”

Each one of these are symbols. In the text, the king is obvious, next to the blue color, a maid (fertility), etc. So what we see working with them is very related to what they do, and how they suggest to us. For example, once during a ritual with King Paimon of Goetia, he presented me in a very strong way, a giant full hand before his face, ready to move anything, a very impressive scene. But I have also scenes I saw in nature, as a call from them, very related to something I was working too.

PAA: You mentioned to me previously that you work with the sixth and Seventh Books of Moses, these have quite a history to them. What can you tell us about your work with them? How did you come to find out about them and what made you want to work with them?

Gilberto: This is a great grimoire. We use the cite the 6º & 7º Books of Moses only with the abbreviation “BoM” and I will use this below. I find the BoM very interesting as a powerful system that works. The main problem is that the BoM “works”. Many colleagues around the world share the same opinion. This means to be a risky book.

Any person with some magical practice will discover even faster than receiving what is asked is not always so good. To learn “how to ask” is needed in magick and working with the BoM is a way to find why this is so important.

For many reasons, the BoM has a sinister reputation and many magicians report to had trouble dealing with the results. Some say it is an evil book, including I have a book with the history of the small city I live in, south of Brazil, and there is a comment about a local event from 1870 where a local healer (or a witch to them) was known to be using the 7º Book of Moses and was told to be satanic. And this was just after few decades after the book became published in the USA for the first time.

Well, anyone finds it difficult to get into the book because there’s no clear order about what to study first, but with time we learn how to deal with it.

Also, there are a lot of transcription errors, since the first edition, and many others were added. Joseph H. Peterson made great work on it for sure, so it’s the best version you may find today. And more, Peterson added a very good foreword citing other books one must study too, so you will find many of the sources, like the Sefer Raziel and others that will add a lot to the understanding of this work.

I’m sure the magick of the BoM works a lot and there are many ways to use it, including it’s very popular among folk magic, root workers, hoodoo, witches, and for sure, ceremonial magicians. Including it was used by many West African churches, as a source for many of their Christian rites today.

When I discover it in the 90s decade I got curious at first and took a long time to learn to use it better. So, if it works what is the problem?

My learning about problems is first because the system is open for many uses and not clear what you really will get with it and how this will happens. For sure, most grimoires are written this way and this is not an exception. Just a bit more confused to say so.

You may get results, plus a lot of “secondary effects” as I name the consequences, many unpredictable and others quite possible to occur when you have a better notion of the type of energies with which we are working.

The first consequence is easy to discover when the magician has the needed intuition or some psychic capabilities for clairvoyance. Or just to observe what happens as many events may happen, like changes in the local temperature, flashes of light, to feel some presence, or just the famous feeling of small ants walking over your skin. And the first to observe is you will be most of the time dealing with many spirits, not only the ones you conjure.

People who lack to have all the needed protections a magick ritual needs will discover soon to have many troubles.

Even when the BoM is used most simply, like the root workers, with a seal under a candle, you will have many spirits coming to the scene. I say they are part, not just intrusive ones. Too often they are from many levels, some are very dense, and even working with angels is possible you will have chthonic spirits acting together but they are part of it! For sure this is not what you will find, for example, working with planetary angelic magick.

I’m not talking just about protection circles or banishments. Many of the seals really will work too with many spirits, so you can’t just try to avoid them and they are part of the operation.

Because of this, I have observed many secondary effects happening. Remember most spirits, be angels or dæmons uses to do more than what we asked for. They will be around and they have other capabilities too, and because this affects you and the operation. Anyone working with the Ars Goetia or Grimorium Verum discover this very soon. Even angels do this sometimes. I observed the BoM rituals open the doors for a lot more spirits. As I work in the formal ceremonial method, I observed this a lot. There are always a lot of spirits around and acting too and sometimes we sense how dense the ritual working space becomes.

As with any work with more powerful spirits, is easy to get trapped or ensnared by them. Again a risk if the magician does have not good discipline, mind training, and some decent level of spiritual development because is common for his/her life to become a mess, and even mental disorders may happen. Just see how many people have psychotic troubles with the Goetia and with the BoM, this may happen too and some are very closer to the problems people have working with ATR (African Traditional Religions) and got obsessed with spirits of the dead.

About the operations, the results I have got are often much broader, not just for the operation, but the whole environment related to the subject we are dealing with. So we get results, plus the secondary effects too often and this needs to be very well planned. Well used, we get what we desire and deal with any consequence positively.

Here’s a good aspect of so many spirits working for just one ritual. This may help when dealing with different magick areas, to be more specific for protection, to cause harm, or even counter-attack, as the sources of the BoM include so many areas, and other traditions may not see what is happening because they will even see this as many different operations.

Some of that spirits are dangerous to work with and even cited in other books, but not with the needed care, like The Angels of Omnipotence. These are the ones able to control the Leviathan, a very dangerous monster dæmon, but they can help to make wonders and at the same time make your life a complete mess very fast because they just accept the task and won’t care about how that will happens. They will easily destroy your life to force you to change so get what you asked for, or present near-impossible tasks to deal with, if you survive the process for sure! If you learned how difficult may be to work with Saturn’s planetary magick for some needed drastic changes, be sure they can do things that become hard but for a long time. So my suggestion with the Angels of Omnipotence is to plan very carefully, divide the task into really small steps, something possible in one month and take time to deal with. Work with one only each time so you can get one without suffering and being safe.

We have angels and dæmons in the BoM and always is needed to check and research their capabilities, and we found a lot of very helpful work they can do without so much trouble.

This is why despite of results, I choose to work with the BoM for more specific situations, when I need to act in a wide situation or when I have many aspects to work. On one side this appears to become simple, but in practice not. Including, too often, I will be working with other angels too, like the planetary ones to strengthen, some needed areas. For example, I may add Haniel (Venus) if the person needs harmony in life and this way be able to deal with the process or Camael (Mars) for a needed discipline and work better with the events happening.

Only to cite a few about the practical work with the BoM spirits. Many are well known, for example, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are cited a lot, and many others. Sometimes they appear to be conjured in a very strange configuration of powers. The part of the Sepher Shimmush Tehillim, or the magical uses of the Psalms became an inspiration for so many works and books too, and the same for the Shemhamphorash.

Joseph H. Peterson many years ago commented the Shemhamphorash chapter must be the first to study in this book and I fully agree, as that helps to understand better how much of that works.

The seals of the 6º & 7º books are used a lot as talismans too. Properly done and consecrated they have a lot of power. All that of the “Formulas of the Magical Kabbalah” and the “Biblia Arcana Magica Alexander” plus others are again great sources for the serious magician to create talismans and empower rituals.

Some of the conjurations of the BoM have been used among many works, like the “Black Seals” by Carl Nagel, “The New Avatar Power” by Geof Gray-Cobb which includes even Enochian parts, and many others.

So the BoM also becomes a source of very interesting materials to improve other rituals and have more proper control over the spirits even in a very respectful way of work, my preferred for sure. Including, as with time I have changed and improved many rituals, and I use many of the BoM together with other grimoires, be it for angelic or dæmon magick, planetary, Goetia, etc and I observed good results this way, including for my self-protection. I’m not talking about shortcuts nor easy methods so many are after, as I added parts to that rites and some became much bigger than the originals.

So, I see the 6º & 7º Books of Moses as great material to continue studying and practicing and be sure I have a lot to do more with it.

PAA: Lastly Grimoriun Verum, what brought you to this very interesting work? What are your thoughts on its origins? Is there anything you are able to share about your practice with this?

Gilberto: The Grimorium Verum (GV) is a hell of a book for sure. IMHO. It’s a bit funny to comment about the GV. I started working with it in practice some 15-20 years ago, so it is very recent for my lifetime. Uhm Ok, I’m a bit older too. LOL. In practice, I was studying spirits and related grimoires like the Honorius a long time before and have made a few really basic works, nothing really serious to say so, just a kind of contact.

I cited above my life experiences to make a lot of contacts with spirits just to say “hello there” and discover what happens. Not a safe method for sure in my early years. So, I got the need for serious work.

That time this was suggested while working with the Books of Moses and see, something I learned is to ask the spirits if they can do what I’m asking and to suggest their guidance. So I received from the BoM spirits I was working with suggestions to improve a specific work by adding the GV spirits.

I have to agree about the GV spirits are infernal ones, as they are, and very different from the Goetia ones I have worked with. GV appears to be a more longtime work to create relationships with the spirits and even so, I still think they can be even opportunists and easy to goes out of control, so is needed to observe all the capabilities of the spirit as they can fast be acting at the other areas they do, as cited before, there’s a lot of secondary effects. And trying to deceive the magician is one of the most common.

Ok, Goetia spirits do this too, try to deceive you, but until now, as I never worked with all of them, I guess some 40 different ones and most of the ones I work with usually will not be intrusive in their way of acting, for sure some made it happens very clear. And even when they extend their work more than asked, still I was aware to avoid becoming dangerous.

I had also other contacts before with the GV spirits because at Quimbanda (ATR – African Traditional Religions) there is mixing with such spirits too and no matter how much I respect some famous priests and authors who are great skilled magicians, I have MY opinion about and that was written at the Ritual Offerings book by NephilimPress, edited by Aaron Leich. I strongly suggest you have this book, not just because of my comments, it was an instantly classic, but because of all the new information the other colleagues presented and are a big source to new decades of working. Anyway, 99.9% of the material I wrote there no ATR priest will say.

Just to be short, I think due to my own experience the spirits at Quimbanda, as Palo Mayombe and other ATR areas are not the same spirits from GV and Goetia. At ATR many spirits mimic others. In this case, Exus, who is a spirit of the dead became to a higher level. They learned that from dæmons on the astral plane, use that information, and even promote themselves as the owners of that. They are not!

Sorry, this is MY opinion, and for sure not a universal law. I may be very wrong. So feel free to do your practice as if that works well for you, be sure to me is Ok. I just think they are not the same spirits, for example. The GV spirits are powerful demons with very specific protocols to observe and learn not just a beginner’s work in the same way Goetia is based on a strong angelic background.

So, the Grimorium Verum is very based on continuous work to make a kind of pact with that spirits. I’m very suspicious of any pact, despite I have my formal pact with Lucifer and others for decades before, but that was not the same I found for example, at ATR. Before someone ask, I never made a pact for richness, always asked for learning and improving myself.

So is not just a matter of being respectful, but of being clear on what you ask, to do what you offer as the spirit must do his part too. To have limits. This is what I’m talking about.

A pact can be simple, like “If you do this I compromise myself to do that”. So, nothing like a lifetime compromise nor selling your soul. Anyways, the GV is a long time of work, to get a connection with the spirits and get their confidence, the same way you need to feel comfortable they are working too.

For now, with the GV method, I’ve working more with the spirits under Lucifer’s hierarchy. As I told you, I have had my formal contact with Lucifer before and this made a difference too. I worked with other spirits hierarchy in the GV too. My to-do list is very big.

One idea of the GV system is to create a seal, and wear it daily for a long time, while you make the tools, etc. Each step has a proper ritual, like the Key of Solomon or the Goetia, etc. And there are some spirit seals to be drawn with your blood mixed in the consecrated ink. This is optional IMHO. Sorry, not my blood and not from a marine turtle. I do not use blood anymore. I’m out of animal blood sacrifices as I had thousands in my hands before because of ATR. Wish I still keep out of that.

Citing Jake Straton Kent at the True Grimoire:

“…It is when you make a pact with a spirit. And have to give the spirit something that belongs to you, that you have to be on your guard…”

See this important warning: keep on your guard anything that belongs to you. Forgot some texts where you write a contract add your blood and burn it. No way! You must have it or they can say you have not a copy to be questioned!

Just to note, Honorius says about a spirit who asks for your hair, to give a fox hair instead. Uhm, we have no foxes here, and be sure not from my pets too! Nor even a dog from the street. The day I work with that one I will negotiate for a no-blood thing.

But I did my seals with ink, etc. Consecrate it and put it to work. And that worked!

NOTE: Remember many of such grimoires were written at a time they had an idea about any demons were after blood, etc. With time we found most of them are just the old deities. Ok, some like blood, so just learn how to deal with it and there are many works about alternatives.

WARNING: This is how I have been working with the Grimorium Verum spirits and this is based on my previous works in ceremonial magick, witchcraft, and ATR too.

So I have my ideas and practices because, for many years, I’m using what has worked for me. This means I have my background with the previous needed work.

The GV rituals have three main parts:

Invoke the boss of the hierarchy, Lucifer, Belzebuth, or Astaroth. Then invoke the intermediate spirit Scirlin, and only then the spirit you want to work.

The boss one:

The GV has a proper evocation for Lucifer, Belzebuth, and Astaroth you must repeat seven times, using a seal, etc. Tell them what you want to do, the spirit you want to invoke, etc.

Here is my first personal change. I do not use that prayer for Lucifer because I have my pact with Lucifer as cited, so I just call Him even with a simple candle. So if you choose to work at GV, please, use the formal GV prayer. That will work better for sure. And use your wand for sure.

I repeat I made this change because I have decades working with Lucifer, do not attempt to do this way, just keep the original GV prayers. And that was what I did meanwhile I was working to follow the grimoire procedures and doing my own experiences.

Just remember: they are powerful demons with very specific protocols to observe and learn, in no way it’s a beginner’s work. And as I will cite, the results I got were because I have some background in the other needed evocation areas, like anything about Ceremonial Magick. No cut corners!

PAA: What, in your view, are the most important principles for the magician to keep in mind when doing evocation and spirit work? Ethics, empowerment, knowledge, control, etc. What ensures one does not lose themselves to the work?

Gilberto: To be sincere. But not stupid. With you at first. What do you see in the mirror?

This is an aspect of self-knowledge. Who are you? What you are after? The magician must know why they are working, what they are after and mostly, and what their capabilities are. Who are you, and what do you need? And, being sincere may affect you if not aware of this.

So many are after some kind of results, and most usually are mundane being money, sex (love), power, and revenge the main four areas people go after more. These are the most common, and too often lack a serious evaluation.

It is common for people to think that working with magick is something like a circus show, or asking for gifts for Santa Claus. They are just repeating “give-me, give-me” and very fast discover this never works and get disappointed.

There are so many other areas to work with, like healing, improving one capability, learning, becoming better at desired areas like a profession, or developing sciences, including being after wisdom and changing personal aspects for the better. These are few people doing.

So the “why to do magick” needs previous knowledge of himself, but most people will perceive this among the many years of practice and some, never will become a better person. All this is related to the “why” aspect and not all people have a serious development from an idea, they just have a short thought and go to work without evaluating that.

An idea must grow, be studied, developed, make planning, think how this may be possible to do just as a human, and only then see how magick can help that. This is before thinking about doing evocation and working with spirits.

They are very aware of you. Forgot any possibilities to disguise what you are doing. They know who you are, and what are you doing. So, be sincere, but with caution too. Hey spirit, I’m stupid and need to learn to solve this situation, I’m not aware, I need help, etc.

Why I say about caution? Because some of them will use this against you! Sorry, to be sincere is needed, but with caution as many spirits are opportunists. So, be sincere, but not stupid!

No matter how much knowledge you may have, hundreds of books, or being famous in society areas. Who are you? Something I cited above, about how much shit I made calling spirits. However, I always was respectful to them, even after receiving a bad result. But never, I lie about myself. Even being stupid.

So, this will help you to have the needed control over what you are doing. And control means knowledge about you and them. To know about needed limits for each work and how to deal with that. So one may have needed control over your own life, but even so, magick, and working with that great spirits never, but never are always safe. Even working with angels I can say for sure.

Have, first of all, an human l