Slide 23 in Founders Powerpoint – CHILIASM PROPHECY POSSIBILITY EVIDENCE (NOT doctrine as no one can be sure 100% as it has not come to pass) but PROBABILITY is high (just look at the names quoted).
MAJORITY does NOT indicate truth nor GOD’s approval because if so then GOD allowed a “Praying to Virgin Mary Christianity to be dominant” and even “Jews of the past who preserved Scripture but do NOT even know that GOD has a SON” meaning TRUTH & ACCURACY depends on WHO we quote & I quote these EARLIEST CHILIASM CHURCH FATHERS (as no one earlier than them for these topics exist and if someone says otherwise, ask them to prove it like I did, fair, right?).
GOD will understand ERROR but LOWER REWARD if SAVED even in PROPHECY CONTEXT (Jeremiah 23:36) but if CLAIMING GOD TOLD ME DIRECTLY TYPE PROPHETS “ETERNAL (“Olam”) REPROACH / UNFORGOTTEN SHAME” awaits if WRONG (Jeremiah 23:37 – 40). Worst is, imagine OUR presentation is FREE (thanks to Roman Catholic sources too) while their PROPHECY books SOLD for money & taking SALARY etc.
CHILIASM Prophecy Timeline Order:
1) Second Coming of Christ and Post-Tribulation Rapture at start of the 1000 years Millennial Reign
[Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Fathers St. Justin of Rome (Slide 24), St. Irenaeus of Lyons (Slide 25), Tertullian (Slide 26) & St. Methodius of Olympus (Slide 27)]
2) First Resurrection, Marriage of the Lamb during the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ
[Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Fathers St. Justin of Rome (Slide 28), St. Papias (Slide 29), St. Irenaeus of Lyons (Slide 30, 31), Tertullian (Slide 31), St. Methodius of Olympus (Slide 32) & St. Ambrose of Milan (Slide 33)]
3) Second Resurrection and change from human to angelic at the end of this 1000 years Millennial Reign for His Bride/Elect Salvation
[Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Fathers St. Justin of Rome (Slide 34), St. Irenaeus of Lyons (Slide 35, 36, 37), St. Victorinus (Slide 37), Tertullian (Slide 38) & St. Methodius of Olympus (Slide 39)]
TQ
Related Articles
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“Christian Founders Ministry Powerpoint” which will be updated with info from time to time (beginning 9 May 2024 onward):
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1qnT4GtEV_1lUpGLZsMbCf1jRKqcRp3lL/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117647441539375745387&rtpof=true&sd=true
290 Slides Free Powerpoint Link discussing variety of topics (Done as of April 2024):
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1C3FZh5AFL2aNDy9s7TA0TphwmF7dBbpP/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=103161103828141436650&rtpof=true&sd=true
Source Post:
https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/pfbid0AoSUWHd4cy12XhJoBUyTJsNPhZLzpTCzkNX2AeHDNVQUh2sZQvHS5FSH29vgtsvxl
TQ
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Slide 24 in Founders Powerpoint – 1) Second Coming of Christ and Post-Tribulation Rapture at start of the 1000 years Millennial Reign [Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Father St. Justin of Rome] Context for 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as no Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) where he only seems to see “2 Comings of Christ” (not 3 including a secret pre-trib rapture) & that the ANTICHRIST OPENLY kills CHRISTIANS till the PUBLIC SECOND COMING of CHRIST meaning NO Christian mentioned to be secretly saved earlier? Notice some quotes in PPT I have not put in books earlier. Also notice word “PHILANTHROPHY” (Charity Doctrine) here in quote + “Righteousness” (Holiness) as True Christians seek that instead of Antichrist’s WAR, MURDER CRIES etc. as he compares below – can you “see” it?;
“… O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel; and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons — our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage— and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified; … For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. ” – Blessed St. Justin of Rome or St. Justin Martyr, PRIEST, CHILIASM CHURCH FATHER, MARTYR for CHRIST, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 110, The First Apology, Chapter 52) Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01288.htm and https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
“… I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, … but, … many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. …” – St. Justin of Rome (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 80) Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm
Slide 25 in Founders Powerpoint – 1) Second Coming of Christ and Post-Tribulation Rapture at start of the 1000 years Millennial Reign [Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Father St. Irenaeus of Lyons] Context for 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as no Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) where he only seems to see the CHURCH PUT to FLIGHT during the LAST ANTICHRIST and “caught up” (“Rapture”) at the END of it with CHRIST’s SECOND COMING with NO mention of any “secret pre-trib for ‘some holier church’ to ‘escape these’?) Please see his combined quotes to see this as other Christians have pointed out too example link:
https://www.monergism.com/historic-hope-church-0
or [From Page 106 onward of the #ChiliasmBook]; The phrase “THIEF in the NIGHT” COMING of CHRIST seems PUBLIC in these BIBLE Verses even, right? So how is it seen as “Secret coming”? Please remember that APOSTLES & PROPHETS can have ZERO PROPHECY ERROR
“… 1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings. Revelation 17:12, etc. It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. … so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, WHEN IN THE END THE CHURCH SHALL BE SUDDENLY CAUGHT UP FROM THIS, it is said, “There shall be TRIBULATION such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the LAST CONTEST OF THE RIGHTEOUS, in which, WHEN THEY OVERCOME THEY ARE CROWNED WITH INCORRUPTION. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, First Doctor of the Church in order of time, Father of Catholic Theology, CHILIASM Church Father, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp, who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter 26, Point 1 & Chapter XXIX (29), Point 1) Sources: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103526.htm and https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm
Slide 26 in Founders Powerpoint – 1) Second Coming of Christ and Post-Tribulation Rapture at start of the 1000 years Millennial Reign [Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Father Tertullian] Context for 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as no Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20)
“… Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death,75567556 Compendio mortis. Compare our Anti-Marcion for the same thoughts and words, v. 12. [p. 455, supra.] which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”75577557 1 Thess. iv. 15–17. …” – Blessed Tertullian, Father of Latin Christianity, Founder of Western Theological Scholarship, CHILIASM CHURCH FATHER (c. 155 AD – c. 240 AD, Anti-Marcion, On the Resurrection of the Flesh , Chapter XLI (41)—The Dissolution of Our Tabernacle Consistent with the Resurrection of Our Bodies) Source: https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.viii.xli.html
Blessed Tertullian only Teaches Two PUBLIC COMINGS of CHRIST (i.e. no secret pre-trib rapture coming of Christ but only a post-trib one).:
[From Page 104 onward of the #ChiliasmBook]
“… Chapter 21. … For two comings of Christ having been revealed to us: a first, which has been fulfilled in the lowliness of a human lot; a second, which impends over the world, now near its close, in all the majesty of Deity unveiled; and, by misunderstanding the first, they have concluded that the second — which, as matter of more manifest prediction, they set their hopes on — is the only one. …” – Blessed Tertullian, Father of Latin Christianity, Founder of Western Theological Scholarship, CHILIASM CHURCH FATHER (c. 155 AD – c. 240 AD, Apology (Tertullian), Chapter 21-partial) Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm
Slide 27 in Founders Powerpoint – 1) Second Coming of Christ and Post-Tribulation Rapture at start of the 1000 years Millennial Reign [Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Father St. Methodius of Olympus] Context for 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as no Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) where he says that the WISE VIRGINS had both FAITH with CHARITY DOCTRINE (“Good Works”) + HOLINESS for Matthew 25:1 – 13 and that it refers to the PUBLIC SECOND COMING of CHRIST too
“… So long, then, as this people treasured up nourishment for the light, supplying oil by their works, the light of continence was not extinguished among them, but was ever shining and giving light in the “lot of their inheritance.” But when the oil failed, by their turning away from the faith to incontinence, the light was entirely extinguished, so that the virgins have again to kindle their lamps by light transmitted from one to another, bringing the light of incorruption to the world from above. Let us then supply now the oil of good works abundantly, and of prudence, being purged from all corruption which would weigh us down; lest, while the Bridegroom tarries, our lamps may also in like manner be extinguished. For the delay is the interval which precedes the appearing of Christ. Now the slumbering and sleeping of the virgins signifies the departure from life; and the midnight is the kingdom of Antichrist, during which the destroying angel passes over the houses.26712671 Exod. xi., xii. But the cry which was made when it was said,26722672 Matt. xxv. 6. [This parable greatly stimulated primitive celibacy.] “Behold the bridegroom cometh, go ye out to meet him,” is the voice which shall be heard from heaven, and the trumpet, when the saints, all their bodies being raised, shall be caught up, and shall go on the clouds to meet the Lord.2673 … For it is to be observed that the word of God says, that after the cry all the virgins arose, that is, that the dead shall be raised after the voice which comes from heaven, as also Paul intimates,26742674 1 Thess. iv. 16. that “the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;” that is the tabernacles,26752675 Bodies. for they died, being put off by their souls. “Then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them,” meaning our souls.26762676 1 Thess. iv. 17. Commentators have remarked on the peculiarity of the interpretation. We give simply the writer’s meaning.—Tr. For we truly who are alive are the souls which, with the bodies, having put them on again, shall go to meet Him in the clouds, bearing our lamps trimmed, not with anything alien and worldly, but like stars radiating the light of prudence and continence, full of ethereal splendour. …” – Blessed St. Methodius of Olympus, CHILIASM Church Father, Bishop of Olympus, Little is known of his life. He was apparently put to death in the Diocletianic persecution. Only a small part of his extensive writing survives. The ‘Symposium [Banquet], or On Chastity’, also known as the ‘Banquet of the Ten Virgins’, extols virginity. In a treatise on the Resurrection, he took issue with Origen and upheld the identity of the resurrection body with that worn in this life. His work on Free Will is a defence of human liberty against the fatalism of the Gnostics (died c. 311 AD, Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Chapter IV.—What the Oil in the Lamps Means) Source: https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.xi.iii.vii.iv.html
Slide 28 in Founders Powerpoint – 2) First Resurrection, Marriage of the Lamb during the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ [Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Father St. Justin of Rome] Context for Revelation 20:4 – 6, Luke 20:34 – 36 as no Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) where he says that the NOT all those CHRISTIANS who are WRONG in PROPHECY aspect are HERETICS (but some are) while the quote in Slide 24 earlier is broken down further with DETAIL of SECOND RESURRECTION at END of 1000 years which has the term GENERAL RESURRECTION (that could contain NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY if anyone saved during second resurrection since all Christians are saved during FIRST RESURRECTION itself in his own words here compare with next slides).
[From Page 175/616 onward of the #ChiliasmBook]
“… I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. …For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, … worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare… And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN OUR CHRIST would dwell a THOUSAND YEARS in Jerusalem [Revelation 20:4 – 10]; and that thereafter the GENERAL, and in short, the ETERNAL RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT of ALL MEN would LIKEWISE TAKE PLACE [Revelation 20:11 – 15, Matthew 25:31 – 46]. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection. [Luke 20:35 – 36]...” – Blessed St. Justin of Rome or St. Justin Martyr, PRIEST, CHILIASM CHURCH FATHER, MARTYR for CHRIST, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho CHAPTER LXXX to LXXXI (80 – 81)) Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm
Slide 29 in Founders Powerpoint – 2) First Resurrection, Marriage of the Lamb during the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ [Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Father St. Papias of Hierapolis] Context for Revelation 20:4 – 6, Luke 20:34 – 36 as no Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) where he says that ALL CHRISTIANS (thirtyfold, sixtyfold or hundredfold reward level harvests of the gospel) are in FIRST RESURRECTION as HIS BRIDE during MARRIAGE of the LAMB and in HEAVEN DWELLINGS where LOWEST HEAVEN is NEW JERUSALEM CITY connecting to that FINAL NEW EARTH (Revelation 21:9) so SOME NATIONS SAVED but NOT ENTER HEAVEN as per Revelation 21:24 – 27 (could be NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY if anyone saved during second resurrection since all Christians are saved during FIRST RESURRECTION itself compare with next slides).
[From Page 217 onward of the #ChiliasmBook]
“… As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: John 14:2 for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, …” – Blessed St. Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 60 AD – c. 163 AD, Fragment V) Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm
Slide 30 in Founders Powerpoint – 2) First Resurrection, Marriage of the Lamb during the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ [Sample Quotes by CHILIASM Church Father St. Irenaeus of Lyons] Context for Revelation 20:4 – 6, Luke 20:34 – 36 as no Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) where he says that ALL CHRISTIANS are in FIRST RESURRECTION so SOME NATIONS SAVED if NON-PRIESTS but NOT ENTER HEAVEN as per Revelation 21:24 – 27 (could be NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY if anyone saved during second resurrection or GENERAL RESURRECTION since all Christians are PRIESTS, BRIDE & KINGS). The NON Elect Salvation possibility for NON-Priests, NON-kings even those punished in HADES till LAST PENNY compare with SLIDES 22, 9, 10, 18 earlier to match “earth beneath” spirit world salvation after “punishment time for disobedience” quoted here. Combined quote below:
[From Page 291 & 160 onward of the #LastBook]
“… 3 … Now, in the preceding book I have shown that ALL THE DISCIPLES OF THE LORD ARE LEVITES AND PRIESTS, they who used in the temple to profane the Sabbath, but are blameless. Matthew 12:5 Promises of such a nature, therefore, do indicate in the clearest manner the FEASTING of that creation in the KINGDOM OF THE RIGHTEOUS, which God promises that He will Himself serve. … 8. But as many as feared God, and were anxious about His law, these ran to Christ, and were all saved. [Elect Salvation] For He said to His disciples: Go to the sheep of the house of Israel, Matthew 10:6 which have perished. [Non Elect Salvation] … remaining a virgin could bring forth a son, and that what was thus born should be God with us, and descend to those things which are of the earth beneath, seeking the sheep which had perished, which was indeed His own peculiar handiwork, and ascend to the height above, offering and commending to His Father that human nature (hominem) which had been found, making in His own person the first-fruits of the resurrection of man; that, as the Head rose from the dead, so also the remaining part of the body — [namely, the body] of everyman who is found in life — when the time is fulfilled of that condemnation which existed by reason of disobedience, may arise, blended together and strengthened through means of joints and bands Ephesians 4:16 by the increase of God, each of the members having its own proper and fit position in the body. For there are many mansions in the Father’s house, John 14:2 inasmuch as there are also many members in the body. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, First Doctor of the Church in order of time, Father of Catholic Theology, CHILIASM Church Father, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp, who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, (Book 5(V), Chapter 34), Points 3-partial)
Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103534.htm
Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103402.htm
Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103319.htm
Compare with “till last penny” earlier slides below:
Slide 22 in Founders Powerpoint – Context for “TILL LAST PENNY” Judgment Bible Verses seems strong for HADES CONTEXT by CHILIASM Church Father Tertullian explains here for “fallen Christians only” (compare with discussion in Slides 9, 10, 18 earlier).
But since Tertullian views “Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture” [in Page 115 onward of the #ChiliasmBook] a key point of difference or contention can be seen [From Page 155 onward of the #ChiliasmBook] where the “Shepherd of Hermas” has “another Salvation outside the [Elect] Tower” can mean “NON-ELECT SALVATION as it refers to REJECTED STONES including even UNBAPTIZED etc.” (parabolically “rejected” from Elect/Bride Kingdom of Heaven Salvation via Marriage of Lamb, Revelation 21:9) on final new earth but not entering heaven? (Revelation 21: 24 – 27, not sure but possible). I present the evidence honestly so no condemnation since both views shown.
Compare below joined quotes; If either of these quotes are right, how many TRUE PROPHETS are there who are right on these parts too?
“… and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection.1735] What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? … In short, inasmuch as we understand “the prison” pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades,18421842 Matt. v. 25. and as we also interpret “the uttermost farthing”18431843 Ver. 26. to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection,1844 no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides. … It is the transformation these shall undergo which he explains to the Corinthians, when he writes: “We shall all indeed rise again (though we shall not all undergo the transformation) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump”—for none shall experience this change but those only who shall be found in the flesh. “And the dead,” he says, “shall be raised, and we shall be changed.” … in such a way that mortality may be swallowed up of life, that is, by putting on over us whilst we are transformed that vestiture which is from heaven. …” – Blessed Tertullian, Father of Latin Christianity, Founder of Western Theological Scholarship, CHILIASM CHURCH FATHER (c. 155 AD – c. 240 AD, A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter XXXV (35), Chapter LVIII (58), Anti-Marcion, On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter XLII (42))
Source 1: https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.xi.xxxv.html
Source 2: https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.xi.lviii.html
Source 3: https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.viii.xlii.html
[From Page 155 onward of the #ChiliasmBook]
“… Do you wish to know who are the others which fell near the waters, but could not be rolled into them? THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.” She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have PARTAKEN of the RIGHTEOUS WORD. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the THOUGHT of REPENTING of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart.” …” – Shepherd of Hermas ( (Book I), Vision 3, Concerning the Building of the Triumphant Church, and the Various Classes of Reprobate Men, Chapter 7)
Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02011.htm
Founders MINISTRY in Christianity – St. Athanasius the Great approved the Didache for Usage – Part 2 of 2
1) Some type of NON-ELECT SALVATION for those WHO did FINANCIAL SINS of taking MONEY beyond NEED? [From Page 391 onward of the #MysteryoftheKingdomofHeavenBook] and the one who GIVES even to WRONG PERSON or SCAMMED is GUILTLESS (meaning his reward is secure and NO sin on his part for being cheated)
Here’s that “Didache” Warning of taking money “beyond needs” (applies not just to Church money but any money too):
“… Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. WOE to HIM WHO RECEIVES; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless; but he who RECEIVES NOT having NEED shall PAY the PENALTY, why he received and for what. And coming into CONFINEMENT, he shall be EXAMINED concerning the THINGS which he HAS DONE, and he shall NOT ESCAPE from THERE until he PAYS back the LAST PENNY. And also concerning this, it has been said, Let YOUR ALMS sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give…” – The Didache, The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. (1st Century, Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment),
Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html
Comment: Is this what CHRIST Meant in these Bible Verses? (we consider it as a POSSIBILITY in light of all this EVIDENCE as you can see, difficult to decide, right?)
[From Page 1800 or 2387 onward of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook];
Compare: The “Prison” till the “Last Penny” seem to refer to the “Gehenna” (Final Hell or Lake of Fire Context) because Christ was talking about that Topic in Verses below:
“… 22 But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in DANGER of HELL [Gehenna] fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into PRISON. 26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:22 – 26, NKJV)
In yet another time CHRIST uses that same phrase “Till the Last Penny” to refer to the “unforgiveness attitude some have” which could mean ‘Lake of Fire or Hades Context’ too:
“… 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and DELIVERED HIM TO THE TORTURERS UNTIL HE SHOULD PAY ALL THAT WAS DUE TO HIM. 35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [g]his trespasses. …” – Most Blessed Judge & KING of kings, Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 18:32 – 35, NKJV)
This is Founders Slide 10. Lake of Fire or Hades or both or Neither?
Founders MINISTRY in Christianity – St. Athanasius the Great approved the Didache for Usage which uses the SAME BIBLICAL Phrase “Till the last Penny” as we saw in Founders Slide 9 earlier –
Here’s the Dilemma: Can the word “PRISON” refer to LAKE of FIRE Context or HADES Context?
The Roman Catholics use Matthew 5:25 – 26 or Matthew 18:34 to refer to HADES Context & link it to PURGATORY (quoting even 1 Peter 3:18 – 19’s “PRISON” word but this refers to “unbelievers context who rejected Noah’s preaching on earth” so POSSIBLE Non-Elect Salvation likewise for “some who believe there in Spirit World too” as word “FORMERLY DISOBEDIENT” meaning not disobedient anymore repented in Spirit World means?).
Another POSSIBILITY is that Isaiah 24:21 – 22 uses the word “PRISON” in “Lake of FIRE Context” since it’s AFTER CHRIST RETURNS and Original Word as KJV translates too is VISITED and NOT Punished AFTER MANY DAYS (as shown in Slide 264 which even NIV translation adds a footnote that ORIGINAL WORD can mean “RELEASED” – Check with your Bible Professor if I’m lying or not).
POSSIBILITIES are there with EVIDENCE even SOLA SCRIPTURA like this but which is right let GOD DECIDE as I present the EVIDENCE HONESTLY and GUARD my tongue likewise. This is Founders Slide 10.
[From Page 1800 onward of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook] CHRIST (not me) Says some of those in AFTERLIFE-PRISON can be RELEASED after JUDGMENT or not here?
“… 22 But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in DANGER of HELL [Gehenna] fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into PRISON. 26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:22 – 26, NKJV)
“… 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and DELIVERED HIM TO THE TORTURERS UNTIL HE SHOULD PAY ALL THAT WAS DUE TO HIM. 35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [g]his trespasses. …” – Most Blessed Judge & KING of kings, Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 18:32 – 35, NKJV)
Please notice the WORD PRISON carefully in each of these BIBLE VERSES only (Sola Scriptura even) to see this POSSIBILITY of NON-ELECT SALVATION for some? I don’t know for sure but this is the EVIDENCE.
“… 18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the SPIRITS in PRISON, 20who FORMERLY were DISOBEDIENT, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. …” (1 Peter 3:18 – 20, NKJV)
“… 21And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22And they shall be gathered together, AS PRISONERS ARE GATHERED IN THE PIT, and shall be SHUT UP IN THE PRISON, and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be VISITED. …” (Isaiah 24:21 – 22, KJV)
Slide 18 in Founders Powerpoint – Am I obscuring Parables for NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY or BEING HONEST with EVIDENCE of CHILIASM Church Fathers? – I believe strongly that if you provide evidence, even if turned out wrong, GOD can FORGIVE in ORACLE/PROPHECY CONTEXT as JEREMIAH 23:36 allows.
Can you do the same with CHILIASM Church Fathers for your claims as per WARNING in Slide 17 earlier and here’s further EVIDENCE for “TILL LAST PENNY” Verses for POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION (if God Wills for some) as per SLIDES 9 and 10 earlier.
The problem here is St. Irenaeus of Lyons only REFUTES the TRANSMIGRATION of SOULS teaching (“reincarnation type”) but is SILENT on the part where these VERSES may REFER to SPIRIT WORLD TYPE SALVATION AFTER JUDGMENT CONTEXT while St. Justin of Rome says that PROPHETS KNEW the TILL LAST PENNY PUNISHMENT in HADES may APPLY to SOME but NOT ALL? (or am I reading him wrong below? You decide but I’m honest with evidence, right?
Can you show me quotes from both St. Irenaeus & St. Justin for your belief likewise for these Verses? Safest way before GOD is always SPEAK with EVIDENCE
“… They affirm that for this reason Jesus spoke the following parable:— Whilst you are with your adversary in the way, give all diligence, that you may be delivered from him, lest he give you up to the judge, and the judge surrender you to the officer, and he cast you into prison. Verily, I say unto you, you shall not go out thence until you pay the very last farthing. Matthew 5:25-26; Luke 12:58-59 … for they declare that the body is the prison. Again, they interpret these expressions, You shall not go out thence until you pay the very last farthing, as meaning that no one can escape from the power of those angels who made the world, but that he must pass from body to body, until he has experience of every kind of action which can be practised in this world, and when nothing is longer wanting to him, then his liberated soul should soar upwards to that God who is above the angels, the makers of the world. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, First Doctor of the Church in order of time, Father of Catholic Theology, CHILIASM Church Father (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD), Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 25) – partial)
Roman Catholic Source:
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103125.htm
[From Page 252 onward of the #ChiliasmBook]
“… And in the tenth book he plainly and manifestly wrote what he had LEARNED from the PROPHETS about the JUDGMENT … and was lying on the FUNERAL pile, CAME to LIFE AGAIN, and DESCRIBED the OTHER WORLD. … For we SAW, among other TERRIBLE SIGHTS, this also. When we were dose to the MOUTH [of the PIT], and were about to return to the upper air, and had suffered everything else, we suddenly beheld both him and others likewise, most of whom were tyrants. But there were also some private SINNERS who had committed GREAT CRIMES. And these, when they thought they were to ASCEND, the MOUTH would NOT PERMIT, but bellowed when any of those who were so INCURABLY WICKED attempted to ASCEND, UNLESS they had PAID the FULL PENALTY. … and that the punishments and torments were such as these, and that, on the other hand, the rewards were the reverse of these.” Here PLATO seems to me to have LEARNT from the PROPHETS not only the DOCTRINE of the JUDGMENT, but also of the RESURRECTION …” – Blessed St. Justin of Rome or St. Justin Martyr, PRIEST, CHILIASM CHURCH FATHER, MARTYR for CHRIST, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, CHAPTER XXVII (27) – PLATO’S KNOWLEDGE OF THE JUDGEMENT, JUSTIN’S HORTATORY ADDRESS TO THE GREEKS)
Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0129.htm
Peace to you
