Thomas HACKER: In the Bundestag, which I attend for almost seven years now, I'm member of Committee on European Affairs and I'm the spokesman of my parliamentary group. Therefore within my obligations are countries that are part of enlargement process.  Whenever I come to a country I try to not only to meet the politicians but also the civil society, young people especially. 

In my first visit in Georgia I found a genuine interest, of younger people especially, in becoming member of European community. I also learned about Georgian life, food, wine with is long tradition, so I came back again and again to Georgia. And I hope that my recent trip will not be the last.  We are planning two more visits. Georgia is an important country in a very difficult neighborhood, and I fear that the pressure from Russia is very high on the government. But we - as Germany and the EU - have to show faith in Georgia.

TH: Our delegation was one of the Committee on Culture and Media. For two years now we have a close connection to the Georgian Committee on Culture and Media. Of course we planned political talks as well, but as the demonstrations were every day,  the Parliament told us that they could not  guarantee our safety within the  Parliament building, so political talks could not take place. We had many contacts with people, NGOs and civil society. We also attended the Berliner Philharmoniker concert in Tsinandali. So it was also a visit of cultural cooperation, intended to deepen the relations between Georgia and Germany. But in result we could see with our own eyes what was going in the streets of Tbilisi. Though political talks could not take place, we tried to get our message right and tell what the German Bundestag was thinking of so-called “foreign agent law”.

TH: We went into the streets of Tbilisi and saw the young people laughing; there was a good positive mood. People went to the streets for their future, they had a very clear view on which direction Georgia should go, and what political measures should be taken. I got a very positive impression. 

And on Monday when the government called for their demonstration, we did not take part, but were around our hotel and could see the buses that brought the people from all around Georgia to the capital. We saw the people had nothing of this positive knowledge why they were in the street. One thing I did not recognize on Sunday but I did recognize on Monday, was that there was a lot of rubbish in the streets. 

Fortunately this Monday demonstration did not show any signs of violence, but on Tuesday this time was over.  We still were in Georgia, but no longer in Tbilisi. I'm very concerned of the situation.  On Sunday we thought that would be the future of Georgia, and on Monday the next demonstration seemed to be the past of Georgia. I hope for the young generation, the future of Georgia will be within the EU. 

TH: Last autumn on the day the candidate status was granted to Georgia, the Georgian Committee on Culture and Media was visiting Berlin. We celebrated it, in the evening, and were all very pleased.   I always said that the candidate status was granted to the people of Georgia, not to the Georgian government, because there were 12 (later 9) recommendations to be fulfilled by the government. If you look at those recommendations today, you see that in the last weeks the Georgian government did everything to hinder this process.  The Georgian government at the moment is acting against those EU recommendations.   Polarization and oligarchisation should be reduced, but they are made even stronger. 

In addition, the man who is behind the Georgian Dream made a very frank speech how he sees the future of Georgia, and I fear in his mind there is only a close connection to Russia possible, and not to the EU. I'm very sorry that after the success of granting a candidate status, now the political decisions are moving in the wrong direction.

TH: The candidate status itself is only one step ahead. What’s coming after the candidate status is preparation for negotiation, and this further process actually is put on hold, if the government does not take the right direction and withdraw the suggested law. This situation is a very big burden for those future negotiations, and at the moment I can’t imagine that we will come back to a path of coming together, if the decisions are not withheld.

TH: Actually it is a difficult question. The German government and the EU are working on plans what will happen. There are many NGOs, political foundations, private foundations that want to help to build a plural society in Georgia. It is very important for an open society that minorities are respected, and not only one political organization can control all media.  Of course, autocratic political systems are afraid of different political opinion, of pluralism and democracy itself; therefore these proposed or adopted changes by the Georgian Dream government are of a big concern.

The EU is not only helping to build a civil society and pluralistic structures in Georgia, but it's also giving money aid for development, and this depends on the progress of pluralistic society. So if the Georgian government stops building a pluralistic democratic society, it cannot expect that other aid will flow into Georgia, as it did in the past. So this is a crucial decision, and I will not threat anyone from whose project the money might be withdrawn, but there is a risk, and there could be severe decisions by EU, as an answer. 

I still hope that it won’t get it that far, and Georgia would find way back to the European course. And I still hope that maybe elections later this year will represent the majority - the 80% of the people who want to join the EU. At the moment the government is doing the opposite.

TH: If you look at Germany after World War II, we had a lot of help from outside Germany to build a democratic society, pluralism, to have free public and private media, to have many newspapers.  This brought Germany back to the countries of democracy, the countries that wanted to change the world to the better. If you look at our experience, there were people who feared that while being part of a bigger project like the EU, every single tradition may be less worth.  In the big countries like Germany we have, for example, Bavaria, with different cultural approaches and traditions. They all still there, and they are parts of this wonderful picture of Germany. And we have Italy, France, Netherlands - so many countries with their own ways of living, music or theater traditions, food. And they all exist, but we all have one belief that the best way for people to live together is a democratic way, with respect of minorities, free speech, and free choice of religion.  People estimate their differences, but respect each other, and this is the European way. 

Georgia is invited to follow this European way, and it's not necessarily that a country decides to go in this way. But if you  look  around - we celebrated 20 years of EU enlargement when Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Malta and Cyprus joined the European Union -  if  you look at what they have achieved, both in democracy-building and in  economic  welfare: People have a better life if  they are part of this wonderful European  Union. Therefore we want to do everything to help the people of Georgia to join this big project. The last days were not the best we had over the years, but we still work together, and it's worth it.

TH: Let's stay in contact. Thank you very much! 

Last minute update: “The EU must consider personal sanctions against the architects of the law,” - Thomas Hacker added to his interview on the day of its publication.