reading your post it seems we have been around the internet for about the same time,,  but you probably more than me.. there were periods of time when I could not afford the luxury.
recently I upgraded  my mobile connection to unlimited
(nation wide) both voice and data.. have had to spend to much time in hospitals and clinics (home away from home)
I am looking into (saving money) for I think a new 5g Nokia for my birthday day in November.. 5 g is no problem as my service provider KPN is entirely 5g. (5g is much more energy effect both on the network and mobile phone units (battery charge last longer)).

at this point in reality my great search is to understand the personality of God.. sorry RP for my experience God is much more than  "formless and occupying no space." God is an extremely complex being of many ¿dementions ?
love exploring ideas of others as well as showing off my own.
it is nice to see old faces
Allan



do not murder, rape or enslave others

-----Original Message-----
From: leerevdouglas
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:50 am
Subject: Mind's Eye Belief vs knowledge

Morning all.

I can't post or respond to posts using the mobile website, so RP I will reply when I get home...

In the meantime....

How much do you know vs how much you believe?

Many of you here know me, some of us go back a decade or more, (hello to those new to me and I to them)@ I've been online for some 35 odd years or so and have much forum experience.  Which is all to say, this not my first ride.

I've been thinking for as long as I can remember. I know some stuff but believe much more stuff and disbelieve a great amount of stuff too.

I've been back and forth with atheists sooo many times that I think I know thier concerns with theism, well at least the anti thiest athiest.

It's about reason. They tell me that Belief without evidence is unreasonable. And yes I suppose it is.  So they smile at me when I say this, and assume they've won...

But isn't that just a description of what belief is? Holding something to be true, that has not been shown to be so....

So I ask them, are you loved?

Yes I am, comes the reply.  But can you Prove that?

Well of course, my partner shows me every day by their words and actions...

Nice, I say, I'm happy for you, love is powerful, being loved is great isn't it..

But can you show that your partner is not deciving you?

Well no you can't.  Because no matter how you try, you just cannot prove that what an other thinks is as they claim it.  So ultimately you must believe...

I'm a pragmatist, a realist, but also a thiest and here's the rub, a nilhist too boot.

Seems contradictory no? A pragmatic and nilhistic religious bloke.

It's not and I can readily explain how, but perhaps in another thread at another time. Here and now I'm speaking about belief and knowledge.

Objective reality exists. Can I prove that?

Nope.  Ultimately Decartes' cogito ergo sum, does not work for me. 

I think, therefore I am...

But I cannot conclusively show that the demon is not dreaming of me as A thinking being, any more than I can prove I'm not a brain in a jar or in any other way a simulated being....

I call Descartes' wondering the first belief.

I believe that I am real and live in a real universe, upon that foundational belief hangs all the other beliefs I hold and the very few objective facts I can claim as knowledge. 

What about you lot?