Hello everyone, welcome back to The Bilna Sandeep show.  Today I have two amazing guests on the show who are both from the interiors industry.  So, we have Sunit who is from residential interiors sector and we have Sneha who is mostly into the design of the commercial, amazing commercial interior spaces.  So welcome Sunit, welcome Sneha.

Sneha: Thank you.

Sunit: Thank you so much.

Bilna: It’s amazing to have you both on the show.

Sunit: I’m really pleased we have finally made it.

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Bilna: Yes, we have been planning it for some time and finally we got the chance to make it.  And maybe to start off with for our listeners, you can tell like, you know, how did you end up in interior fit out industry because you don’t belong to, you don’t come from that, right?  You were into banking previously, right? So how did you come and how did that happen?

From Banking to Interior Design

Sunit: So, I was in Australia for a very long time in Melbourne before I came to Dubai, almost 10 years ago now.  And I was in the banking sector, but I was on the tech side.  So, in the tech side, it’s built in our genes to solve problems for our clients, right?  So, when we moved to Dubai, our objective was to move to Dubai to start a business.  And we were looking for opportunities where there is a gap in the market, where there’s a need that we could fulfill in terms of our skills.  And then after a lot of research and I always have a passion for design. When we moved to Dubai, I got my own house.  I got a villa and I really did my villa at that time by myself.

And I always loved design, even though I’m from FinTech background, but design has always been passion.  So, it’s always been in the heart.  It’s always been kind of like my passion, my love that I’ve always enjoyed designing and creating something.  So, when we moved to Dubai, we started with our own villa and we really did our villa very nicely.  And, you know, even till today, we get a lot of compliments.  So that was a very natural segue.  And then we started realizing there’s a demand in the market.

There are a lot of people who want to do up their homes, who want to invest in making their home nice, either for living or for getting their value appreciated and then reselling it.  So that’s how we basically got into it.  When we started doing things for other clients, it was, we started with very small, you know, we started with a little bathroom and a small kitchen and things like that.  And then over a period of time, we grew to where we are.  And now we are a complete, you know, design turnkey fit out company.  We do design as well as we do renovation, contracting, and we have our own joinery as well now.

So, it’s taken us a while to get to where we are, but that’s been the journey. And it’s something I think that was meant to be, you know, sometimes you don’t ever think that that’s what you’re going to end up doing in your life, but destiny has some other plans and that’s where I’ve ended up.  So, I’m really happy about that.

Bilna: Yeah, you and I have shifted my industry from construction to marketing, right?  So that’s something again, a huge shift.  But I see a lot of founders who move from completely different industries. And in case of Sneha, you were in a corporate industry, but into design, right? And now you moved to your own.  So, what was that point when you felt like I should start my own? How did that happen, you know?

From Luxury Flying to Design

Sneha: So, you know, one podcast is not enough for my journey.  I always say this.  So as a kid, I was always inclined towards art.  But I come from a Maharashtrian family from Thane, Maharashtra.  So, art was not always considered as the best career.

I wish we had those career counsellors during that time.  But I had three choices, either take in two choices, science or commerce.  Science, I was like, no, no, no, science is not my cup of tea. commerce.  Fine, let’s do it.  In my heart, I liked arts.  I like spaces.  I like designing.  I like good looking showroom.  If I go to see somebody’s house or something beautiful, I used to like wonder how is this made? But I never paid attention to it.

I completed my graduation in commerce.  Then was the question whether you will take MBA or you will do masters or what?  And I was like, now enough is enough.  So luckily, I got an opportunity.  Etihad Airways came to Bombay. That was year 2005.  And I was like 20, 21and me, I sneakily went for this interview. I borrowed makeup, I borrowed outfits.

I passed that interview.  Out of 1500 people, some 10 of us got selected.  I didn’t even have a passport by then.  So that’s another story.  But I got an opportunity to take my decision and I took it, packed my bags, came to this magical land called Abu Dhabi, telling, promising myself, promising my family members, it’s just a two-year affair. I’ll come back in two years.  Just give me these two years. That two years never happened.

Bilna: Anyway, it became your home.

Sneha: Absolutely.  I started flying and it was a whole new world.  I was introduced to luxury.  Etihad meant luxury.  They provided us luxury apartments as staff place.  We used to fly business class.  We used to meet business-oriented people on our flights in first class.  And everything meant good looking things.  And this also gave me a power of money.

I got my own salary.  I used to save a lot of money.  So, I decided this is not going to, this career is not going to work forever.  Now what do I do?  Then that hidden passion of art came out.  I started researching how can I pursue interior designing degree.  I found Manipal University in Dubai, who used to do these courses for weekends.  Thankfully Etihad helped me at that time.  I changed my flying schedule and I got off during the weekends.

So, I used to travel from Abu Dhabi to Dubai from that Gubaiba bus.  And I used to go to my university.  I started studying full time.  So almost like eight years with Etihad, once I got my degree, I decided to say goodbye to Etihad and I landed up in Dubai, got an internship job with McNally Design International.  So that internship became my milestone.  This company, McNally Design.

Bilna: That’s a shift from flying to flying in the design world.

Sneha: Yes, that was the milestone.  That company, I became an intern.  I became a junior designer there.  Then I was promoted to a senior designer there.  So, life has, the design journey has started and has never stopped from there.

Bilna: And probably when you were flying in luxury classes, you were probably interacting with a lot of business people.  Did that impact your decision to finally land up on a business yourself?

Sneha: In the first class, I met an interior designer.  Beautiful looking, wearing a beautiful business attire.  She came, she sat in her first-class suite. She opened that big tray and she had those drawings and some, she was marking, correcting those drawings.  And I was, my heart was fluttering.  I was like, this is what I want to do.  I want to sit in business class, first class.  I want to be this busy.

I want to look this good.  And I want a career like this, where I’m a high-flying designer.  And I spoke with her and she told me, it looks glamorous, but it is hard work too.  I said, hard work is fine.  I’m used to hard work.  I like hard work.  Then she said, then you should go for it.  Amazing.

Bilna: So that was the first scene. Now coming back to you, Sunit, so you have worked in Australia, right?  And in Dubai. So, there’s a difference in working cultures in both the countries, right?  So how do you deal with that?  For example, something that I see as a marketing person, we give a lot of proposals.  Sometimes clients ghost us after that.  And we have discussed that a lot of times.  How does that, how is that compared to Dubai versus Australia?  How is that working culture difference?

Navigating Cultural Differences

Sunit: The thing is, now in Dubai, I’m on the opposite side.  So, in Melbourne, I was working, we used to hire basically tech companies and do system integration for banks. So, we were on the client side, where we would evaluate proposals and we would hire them or not hire them and be the decision maker from that aspect.  But now I’m basically on the other side of the table.  And it’s a very different culture in the sense, Australia, it’s either it’s black or white.  It’s either yes or no.  But here in Dubai, and I’ve seen that changing a lot.  Like initially it was, as you said, give proposals, people ghost us.  But now I think people are very, upfront.  And they’re very in terms of they’re ready to have a conversation with you. That’s why they would go with you or they would not go with you.

Bilna: That’s the best.

Sunit: That’s the best.  So, you understand when you are not when the client is not signing up with you or signing up with you.  What is the reason?  It can’t be only price. Yes. Right.  So that is one thing is to find that it’s a very initial as you’re saying it’s a price conscious market.

But now where we are, we basically do a lot of luxury projects and the monies in luxury in Dubai.  Right.  In that sector.  For any fit-out company.  That’s the that’s the basically the cream of the market we target.  And I’ve started noticing in the last year or two years that people are a lot more responsive, people a lot more expressive.  People tell you what they want.  They don’t want why they want to go with you, why they do not want to go with you.  So, I feel like that culture is changing, that mindset is changing.

Bilna: It’s evolving.

Sunit: And now it’s a lot easier in terms of getting your pipeline locked.  Because that’s what we are experiencing personally.  And also, as a company, we know the kind of clients we are we want to go after as well.

Bilna: You have that niche now.

Sunit: Yeah, we have that niche.  So yeah, exactly.  This is my client.  We have a very good understanding of our client is and we target them. And if there’s a reason why it doesn’t work out, then we have a very good understanding of why it did not work out.  I feel that that that whole culture is evolving where people are a lot more open minded and where people are a lot more honest, upfront and a lot more, you know, with clear communication.  So that that has really, I’ve seen a big difference there.

Bilna: And that’s great.  And both of you have also designed part also in your business, right?  And when it comes to Dubai, it’s like a mini world, because we have people from all over the world.  Yeah, like we have Russians, Chinese, Indians and so many other national Emiratis, Arabs, right?  It’s a mixed culture,

Sunit: which is the beauty of it.

Bilna: It is a beauty of it. Yeah. But when it comes to design elements, right, you have a different set of clients and their tastes are different.  How do you identify as a designer?  Like how do you identify the what their taste is? And how can you meet that taste in the design?  And how do you do that?

Tailoring Designs to Personalities and Preferences

Sneha: For us, it’s the design brief, the initial meeting.  It’s just like how we are sitting, only the mics and cameras are not there. It is almost like, you know, we are interviewing them.  And I try to understand the most about that person, that person’s personality, his requirements.  What is his aim?  If it’s a retail outlet, then it’s an it’s all about brand but it is a residential project, it’s all about him, the client, his wife, his parents, their children,

Bilna: and the usability of the place.

Sneha: So, it’s all about that initial meeting and understanding them. Sometimes even an Indian client will want something minimalistic.  Yes, they will request something that is more towards the Arabic design, Moroccan design.  So, I stop judging them by their nationality.

Bilna: It’s more of understanding each person.

Sneha: Absolutely! They just candidly show me a Pinterest image or an Instagram image.  Like this is the mood board.  This is how I would vision my house.  That’s it. That is what I need.

Bilna: And is it the same in your case as well?

Sunit: Yeah, absolutely.  I think culture plays a part of it, but also their background has a big role in terms of what they like.  So as Sneha mentioned, we have a lot of clients who are Indian clients, but they are they go with a lot of minimalistic balance.  But then there are also clients who are from the same part of India, for example, but their taste is completely different.  They want extravagant luxury.  They want something which basically reflects their personality.

So, it really comes down to as a personality who they are, their family, how many members in the family, how they wanted.  So, the initial meeting is all about understanding them, their preferences, their family setup, how they want to use the space.  And then we see a lot of like we ask them, okay, can you show us some reference images and very similar.  They bring in their Pinterest or Instagram and they show us this is what I like.

And some people are very, and most of the clients we meet these days, they’re very clear from right from day one that this is what I want.  And that’s it.  Like you obviously as designers and as a renovation fit out company, we have a lot of input, but they’re very clear in terms of the vision they have for the house, which makes our life also very easy.

Bilna: when a client comes without knowing what they want, that’s a difficult client.

Sunit: That’s a very difficult client.  They are very clear.  As I said, people are now educated, they’re well-travelled, they have so much exposure, there’s so much content information out there.

Bilna: Especially in Dubai

Sunit: especially in Dubai, a lot, a lot.  So, people have a clarity in their head, which makes our life also easier, you know, when it comes to understanding the design and what mood board they’re looking at.  So that’s a good starting point.

Overcoming Budget Constraints

Bilna: Now there’s one element to having the right vision, right wish list and everything, right?  Now, how do you match it with the budget?  Because sometimes the wish list is here, but their budget is here.  So how do you deal with that situation?

Sunit: So, because we are a, we do both design and renovation fit out.  When somebody shows us the design, we don’t straight away talk about budgets.  Normally how we calculate is, is depending on the property value.  People would spend anywhere between 15 to 20% on the renovation of it, right?  But where we see a big disconnect in terms of the design they want, and you know, sometimes they specify the budgets.

Sometimes clients tell us, look, I don’t have any budgets.  You tell us what is possible, right?  It’s just very, very standard. We don’t have budget.  This is what we like.  So based on that, we give them options in terms of the materials that can get used.  So, you might like big slabs and you might like, you know, on exploring and things like that.  But as a design company, I think it’s our responsibility to propose options in terms of materials.  And materials make a very big difference when it comes to budgeting.  The finishes make a very big difference.  So based on that, we give them a quotation and we give them a range.  Like it could be anywhere from this to this, depending upon the material that you choose.  And we provide them with the samples based on what they choose. We come up with the final price. So, it’s, you know, they are, they have an understanding that this is the design I want, but if my budget is not as, you know, my budget is not very high, I’ll have to choose, for example, this material.

Obviously, it’s not a substandard material, but it will not be like a Fendi kind of a tiling or it won’t be like that, you know, premium tiling.  It will still be good standard quality, but we’re very clear and honest and they understand and they appreciate that when you are honest.  When a fit-out company is transparent and honest, they really appreciate it. Because it’s very, very hard in my experience to find honest companies here, you know, who call spade a spade and who are transparent because this industry can be a lot of like because companies obviously like to be completely transparent in their costings and so many things. But the way we work is a little different because we want our lives to be easier and we want our clients’ lives to be easier. So, we just present to them with the options, the finishes.  This is the reality.  This is you choose what you want.  Based on that, you know, we can go ahead with that.  So, I think that’s how we manage basically the design and at the end of the day, their budgets.  At the end of the day, we need to know their budgets.  And a lot of times when we send out the quotation based on the mood board is when the client says, okay, this is not the budget I want or how about like you’ve quoted this, but what if you go for a more premium material?  So, then we kind of understand what their real budgets is.  And then we work around with the client according to that.

Bilna: That’s nice.  And also, another issue is like, you know, finding the right materials, probably, you know, when you are designing, like do you also guide the client?  Like maybe they might come up with a wish list based on something they saw in a movie or when they travel somewhere, right?  But maybe it’s not suitable for the place.  Maybe it’s not.  So how do you convince them in your case? Like how does that happen?

Managing Client Expectations

Sneha:  I have burned my hands in this process.  So as a new design consultant, even I did specify something made in Paris, some chain curtain I had from some renowned company.  And it’s beautiful.  It looked amazing in the 3D.  But when the project was awarded to a contractor, the curtain price was the most it was 100,000 dirhams something and the entire rest of the fittings were completely low price.

And it became like, so it wasted everyone’s time because I had to redo, I had to refine something that equally looks good, but is in the budget.  So, what now I do is I if I like something, if my team likes something, and we already know that this is a mid-end project, the prices are cannot exceed, let’s say 500,000 dirhams in terms of fit out.  So, we try to find equivalent products.

So, it could be an MDF slabs, or it also could be a POP slabs.  It could be, there are options.  Some clients tell us they want renowned designer items.  Some clients tell us the budget is less, but they want, for example, this fire plays, that’s the best example, you will find this item in Dragon Mart also.  Yes, you have good suppliers of this coming to our office.  So, there is two choices.  Third is an original fire.

Bilna: Yes, which won’t work in Dubai.

Sneha: Yes.  So, depends now, something from Dragon Mart may not give you a warranty, it may not work for three years without but then the price is low.  So, it is all being the purpose.  It’s all about being transparent with the client and letting you choose this is what you get.  I also have learned and I now collaborate with my contractors.  They are the one they’re the best people who know the option.

Right now, my phone is buzzing.  My contractor is sending me an option for something that some slat wall we had proposed and he’s not getting it in dimensions.  And he’s now sending me back-to-back options of these are the options slats that we can propose with the same texture.  So, I believe the contractors are because they go more in market. Yes, then the consultants.

Bilna: They know the practical elements that happen on the site.

Sneha: Yes.  So, it’s more like we are learning from our fit-out team contractors. Sneha, this item is way too expensive.  This light, the chandelier that you specified, it’s beyond but there are some suppliers.  So, it goes hand in hand.

Sunit: Dubai has endless number of options.  Yes.  You have designer wear options, which is a which because it’s a designer product.  It also has that price tag. You have very similar looking items which are not which are unbranded but you know, local based equally good look and feel.  It’s just that they don’t have that brand tag to it.  You know, so some clients are conscious.  Some tell us are very, very open and they say, look, I want any subtitles.  I want marble flooring and I know budget is not an issue.  Some look say I want my flooring to look like marble, but I don’t have money to invest into the marble.  So, then we look at alternate options.  As you know, Sneha said, it’s all really about the materials and the finishing that actually decides, you know, you can give us you can give a room basically which has really large slabs.  Yes.  And slabs give a luxurious look.  Right.  But obviously slabs are expensive.  So, there are alternate options to that as you know, the client just wants to make sure that the space looks nice, chic, luxury, and it is in their vision.  And then obviously, depending on the budget, we propose to them the materials that they should be going for.

Bilna: Nice.  Nice.  Now something other than that, right, you both are in the service-based industry and you are the face of the brand.  Clients come to you after talking to you. Same for me also.  We are in that because they trust us first.  Now there’s a handover process that happens after that when you hand it over to your team to take over.  Or probably you are not able to hand over the whole of it, the operation side, right?  Not only the operation, even the business development.  There’s a lot that goes on, right?  How do you deal with that?  Because some clients probably they want to see you only, right? Even at the site, why didn’t you come today?  How do you deal with that?

Trusting and Empowering the Team

Sunit: In my case, look, I’m very transparent that I would go initially and I would be involved a lot from initial consultation, initial design brief, the quotation stage, even the negotiation stage, all of that, right?  But then once the project is confirmed, it’s not like I just drop the ball and I move off.  I’m always involved.  So, I have a very capable team and I really trust them.

So, I need to get them to do their job.  And I’m not somebody who likes to watch over their shoulders or micromanage them because I know they are talented people.  They’re getting paid well and I know that they love their jobs.  So, when they love their jobs, they will do a very, you can trust them for it.  And I’m very honest, look, this is my architecture design team and a lot of the people come to our office.  Most of our clients, they always come to our office before they sign up with us.  So, I introduce the team.

They know the team.  They know who heads up design.  They know who are the architects in the team.  They meet our supervisors or on-site engineers.  So, they’re very, very comfortable.  And I introduce them.  It’s a very warm introduction I do.  And I’d always tell them, look, they’ll be your day-to-day contact.  If there’s any issues, if you have concerns, you know, I’m just a phone call and I’m on every WhatsApp group with the client. So, I know what’s happening on a daily basis with the client.  And so, they never feel like I’ve disappeared because I’ve not, and I’m just a phone call away, you know?  So, when I get involved, is where there’s an issue or the client needs clarification or there’s some budget questions and things like that, I get involved.  But other than that, day-to-day, I have a very capable team.  And my clients are very comfortable with them. And I get complimented a lot that I really trust your team. Your team is amazing because you’ve really handpicked these people.  And they’re good at what they do.  And they’re very friendly.  They’re good at their jobs.  They are, at the end of the day, they are seasoned architects and designers. So they know what they’re doing.

Bilna: That’s nice.

Sunit: So that’s how we manage them.

Bilna: How about you? How do you manage those?  Because we have to be in different places.

Sneha: Absolutely.  I sometimes feel like that, you know, that Devi who has so many hands.  I think a new business owner is always that reincarnation of the goddess with so many hands.  Being coming from a job background, and not having any initial business training, I learned from mistakes.  So, I was a micromanager.  I used to look at the screen of that designer and constantly like, no, no, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop.  Don’t do this.  Don’t do that.  And I used to restrict them from using their own creativity.  Then my mentors from BNI, whom with whom I used to tell them, I’m burning out.  I’m doing this.  I’m doing sales.  I’m meeting my clients.  I’m like, I’m so tired.  I don’t even go to like sell or look at me.

They said, Sneha, you’re micromanaging.  That was the term I first time heard.  I was like, yeah, because I have to know I have to, I have to look at the design.  I have to do the presentation also. And I have to do sales also. They said, no, you don’t have to.  You’re paying them salary.  Empower them.  Empowering them actually helped me a lot.

Bilna: Because something had happened to me as well.  When I started off, I was because I was scared to let go that process. Right.  So, this is the same thing I have also heard from my mentors.  You have to delegate with authority and with accountability.

Sunit: Yeah.  But you know, in my case, I have worked in Australia and I’ve had the best bosses.

Bilna: That’s nice.

Sunit: So yeah, so I’ve always had amazing bosses who have trusted me and who empowered me and who never washed over my shoulder.  So, for me, that is built in my DNA.  Yeah, it came very natural to me to not micromanage them.  So, because had I experienced bad bosses, and it’s very important to always work before you start a business.  That’s a very important thing to do, you know, because you learn so much while you’re working for someone.  So, I had bosses and they’ve always been extremely empowering.  Yes, I’ve made mistakes and they’ve always stood up for me, told me where I’ve gone wrong and I’ve learned from my mistakes.  So, I’ve always had really nice bosses who empower me, who keep me accountable.  That’s the most important thing. I was accountable for what I was doing.  So, I am kind of, it’s the same thing I do with my employees now.  And that’s what keeps people very happy and motivated and stay with you for long.  The moment you start micromanaging, they don’t want to be with you.  So yeah, I think if you let people do their jobs and trust them, I think they’ll do a fab job.

Bilna: Very true, very true.  It’s more about letting them and empowering them to take decisions when you’re not there.

Sunit: Exactly.

Sneha: They are creative people also, right? And how can we restrict them?  They want to be free and that’s how they will develop designs into reality.

Bilna: Nice.  Exactly.

Sunit: The reality is we can’t do everything.  We cannot.  If there are seven, eight projects at one time, we practically do not have the time to get in.  At the end of the day, I’m a mother, I’m a wife, my parents are with me.  So, I have other responsibilities in my life as well.  And they are, I would say, if not more, equally important to me.  Spending time with my child is equally important to me.  So, for me, I don’t take that pressure anymore.

I used to, but I’ve learned to calm down in my life that, you know, I can do what I can do and I’ll do my best, best at it.  But other time I have to let my team manage it.  You know, obviously they make mistakes.  They’re human beings at the end of the day.  As long as they learn from the mistakes, that’s all that matters.

The Quest for Work-Life Balance

Bilna: Coming to that as well, the family side of things.  How are you, now you’ve said like you have that it is equally important to you.  Now, how do you manage to find the time?  What’s your secret sauce?

Sunit: There is no, I wish there was a secret sauce.  There is no secret sauce.  It’s a lot of trial and error.  You know, you’re a mother yourself.  It’s a lot of trial and error.  Okay.  You know, what if I, instead of, you know, having this meeting one arm, what if I just cut it out to 40 minutes, that extra 20 minutes I can spend with my child. And at the end of the day, I make a very conscious effort to not ignore my family and only concentrate.  Yes, this long hour is stressful and everything, but if I have to pick up my daughter from school, I’ll make sure I leave the office and I go and pick her up.  Because I know at the end of the day, the world is not going to come crashing down.  We think it is.  It’s not.  It’s not.  Life will go on. Things will move on.  And, you know, I have now, after a period of time, I’ve set my priorities, right?  But like, what’s important to me is important.  I have to take time out for my family because that gives me happiness.  And if I’m not happy, I cannot bring that happiness to work.

Yes.  You know, I’ll get everybody frustrated if I’m not happy.  So, spending time with my daughter, with my husband, you know, meeting my friends, I have a very close knit of friends gives me happiness. And that’s very important for me to kind of put that into my business because people feel the vibe.  When you are happy, they feel it.  Your clients feel it.  Your employees feel it. Your suppliers feel it.  So, I think you have to have a very cool head.  You cannot get everything.  You have to, sometimes you take things with a pinch of salt.  Yes.  And, you know, take life as it comes.  Do your best.

And then the rest, you know, you have to leave it to your team to manage.  So that’s how I manage it. Like I’ve set my priorities right.  Because if I want, I can spend 24 hours a day on my business.  Right? It’s not going to serve any purpose. I’m going to impact my mental health, my physical health, everything.  And then nothing is going to happen.  So, I’ve learned that now that this is how, you know, I have to, because there’s more to life than just work.  There’s more to life, right?

Bilna: Very true. What about you?

Learning to Say No

Sneha: Oh my God, what about me? So, see, Dot2Design is just a two-year-old baby.  And its growth actually is overwhelming.  First, I think one and a half years was only work, work, work!  Like right from being a freelancer to getting the trade license.  The journey has been amazing.  And then hiring new team.  Some of them were not vibing with us.  So then managing to get that ideal team.  Yes.

And then this project, this vertical that we never thought of, like we thought we will be only consultants for residential, but then we started growing in healthcare, in retail, in offices.  And this growth was overwhelming.  And we are really happy with it.  But I believe every new business owner goes through this, that my family life was completely sidetracked.  My parents understood it.

My sister who loves me so much, who craves for spending time with me back in India, she understood it. My husband has been a great support.  He himself is a businessman.  He has multiple businesses.  So, he understands that he sees me going crazy, cranky one day.  Suddenly like I decide this Saturday, we have to work.  I am going to ask my team members; we have to work.  And he’s like, no, Saturday, Sunday is off.  Everyone deserves their off.  The world can wait.  You should be able to say no to your client. Learn to say no.  I was like, no, I cannot say no.  Because he’s a big luxury retail owner.  I cannot say no.  He said, you can say no.  Who told you cannot say no?  I started learning to say no probably past six months back.  And really life has changed.  It has become calmer.  I will not say it’s still like 100%.

I am like, mastered the work-life balance.  There are days it goes off.  Yesterday, my husbands like his birthday are on 1st of November.  He’s like, let’s go for a vacation.  And he’s like, we can go Turkey, we can, you know, because visa will be an issue.  So, places where there is no visa, Bhutan is a good option.  I said, yeah, Bhutan, Bhutan, I need peace.  Bhutan, we will go.  And then I like, today, last night only, I told him, listen, from Monday, I’m starting five new projects.  Payments are like about to come now.  So how do I manage?  Can you guide me?  Okay, you’re my mentor, please.  I try to empower him cheekily.  And he was like, maybe we should push the Bhutan a bit.  Bhutan will happen.  So that’s the case.  Now Bhutan will happen.  Turkey will happen.  But in my case, probably I have to really find that, you know, balancing these things.  Yeah, it’s a challenge.

Sunit: The reality is this fit out construction industry is a very ruthless industry.  It’s a very time demanding industry.

Sneha: You want to give your staff those extra days off that you want them to leave at six o’clock.  And you want to go for those beautiful vacations.

Sunit: But yeah, this time is time becomes a luxury in this business, you know, because it’s very demanding. It’s a lot of work.  I totally understand where you’re coming from.  There is no like, there’s no secret sauce, we just have to find what works for us.

Bilna: So, if one season you go high, then you should take that time to break it off.

Sunit: And you know, at the end of the day because we have business owners, we have expenses, we can’t like not take up projects.  Because obviously we have expenses to meet and all of that.  And more than that, it’s our passion.  It’s our business, our bread and butter.  We have to run the business.  But it’s just, you know, it’s a very demanding industry.  And you’re from this industry as well.  You know the challenges; you know the ups and downs that happen.  But I think at the end of the day, if you see the most seasoned businessmen, they are very calm.  You know, they know the balance.  Yes, it’s just not all work, work, work, work.  They know, okay, you know, where you have to draw a line.  So, I think over a period of time, we all burn out one day, we’ll all burn out if you go at this rate.  Right. So, we have to kind of know where to draw the line and where to have that balance.

The Fear of Taking Vacations

Sneha: I used to feel guilty for taking vacation. I think this June, we went to Kerala.  It was my first vacation where I did not take my laptop. It was a 10-day vacation and I felt proud of myself.  I was telling everyone.

Bilna: Wow, I made it.

Sneha:  I did not take my laptop.

Sunit: And did anything happen?  Did anything fall?

Sneha: Everything was smooth.  Exactly amazing.  My team used to just update me on our group chat, what they are working on.  Clients, I used to get scared to tell my clients that I’m going on vacation. Why was I this way?  I don’t know.  But this time I told my clients, actually, I’ll be on break. And nobody reacted.  They’re like, okay, cool.  They consider me human.

Bilna: Okay, that’s awesome.

Sneha: So, who will be point of contact?  I said, my team members are there.  They’re all on.  Every project has its own WhatsApp group.  So, the client is there.  And everything went smooth.  All this burning of blood was for nothing.

Bilna: I think it’s that perspective we have.  We feel that, you know, my God, if I move away, it’s all going to fall down.  It’s not going to.  Even I took a recently five weeks break in Kerala.  I was so scared to travel.  Five weeks.  Of course, I took my laptop.  I did work a few hours also.  But I was so scared to leave Dubai for so long.  It was like, my God, what’s going to happen?  But that’s a month we got the greatest number of inquiries, the greatest number of meetings.  I did online with the clients. It was converting.  Things were happening.

Sunit: And then your team also steps up when they know that you’re not around.  They step up more because they feel accountable and more responsible.

The Risk and Rewards of Hiring

Bilna:  So yeah, I think it’s all about that.  Now, another part of it, right now, Dubai is booming, right?  The real estate is booming, which means your industry, your interior fit out is also booming.  There’s a lot of things happening.  So, you’re foreseeing the business is going to come.  Probably you have a pipeline of maybe you expect 10 projects to close.  Right?

So that means you have to hire or scale up in terms of your resources.  But maybe when you hire, you can’t get the team to work like that from day one, right? It takes a training period of probably one or two months for them to get into the groove of your company.  So, you have to anticipate and hire, which is also risky.  How do you deal with that?  Because I deal with that in my business, and it’s been really scary.  And but I still am doing.  So how are you guys dealing with such situations?

Sunit: But typically, like for my one designer architect, I don’t give them more than three to four projects to handle.  So, I don’t that they’re human beings.  You know, the more you give them, the more they are more prone to mistakes.  Right.  So typically, I go with that ratio. And if I see my pipeline is building up and I see a lot more work coming in, then, you know, I will do the hiring.  Yes.  But I feel it is very, there’s a lot of intuition involved as well.

When you hire somebody also, it is a little bit of planning as well. So, because we are a complete design and fit out firm for us is one aspect is a designer and architects, but also, we hire civil engineers, we hire the whole team to manage the whole team.  Right. So, it’s a basically there is no science or art to it.  It’s just when we feel depending on how things are building as the projects are coming, there are also others that are ramping down.  Yes.  So, there is that balance we have to find.  And where I feel is a missing gap, you know, we’ll go and hire like, there are two roles that I’m actively recruiting for right now.  And they’re not designers or architect’s role.  And because I know there’s a need for there’s a burning need for that in our company.  So, we will hire based on that.  Yeah.  There’s a lot of intuition and based on your previous experience.  You know, you are kind of that’s another part because I’m telling you, it’s the people that makes your business succeed or fail.  It’s the people it’s really comes down to the kind of people you hire.

So, I do take my time before I invest in them.  They have to like us and we have to like them.  It has to be a two-way relationship.  It can’t be one way.  And they have to love what they do.  So, we keep things very simple, very transparent right from day one.  This is how it will be.  Are you okay?  You know, they have a lot of questions to ask.  So, I feel it’s a lot of like intuition, but also, it’s a lot of like previous experience where we feel when we need to hire or we don’t need to hire.  But once we hire, we are 100% because we can’t hire and then after six months, let them go.

So, you have to be very sure that when you’re hiring somebody, you need that much kind of the business or the pipeline building up.  Right.  Yeah.  You’re because at the end of the day, you are responsible for people’s livelihoods.

Bilna: You are responsible for putting food on the table for them.

Sunit: You’re responsible for their livelihoods because they’re working for you.  Yes. You can’t hire them today and say after six months, sorry, I don’t need you.  It doesn’t work like that. So yeah, it’s a bit of planning and also, it’s a bit of, you know, a past experience and a bit of intuition that goes along.

Bilna: It’s a combination of three.

Sunit: It’s a combination of three.  And there’s no fine line like, you know, where it’s just, you kind of do what you feel is the best at that point in time.

Bilna: Are you also in the same thing?

Sneha: Absolutely.  Like right now, I require a senior designer, interior designer who can manage creating a concept by herself, by himself or herself and who can do a bit of 3D work where required.  The market is booming.  So, the salaries that they are demanding is way too high.  They’re higher than my design estimate.

Yes.  But having said that, I also learned when I started Dot2design, I hired a very senior CAD designer, draftsman, 15 years of experience.  I thought it was amazing.  If he’s so senior, I mean, I don’t have to worry about the CAD work.  It was a mistake.  He, I mean, I looked at his CV and I was happy, but as a person, as a personality, he did not vibe with me. Okay.  If I am not happy, how will my designs turn to be right?  That made me understand that it’s not the experience that is important. It’s how this person will gel with your company, your ideologies and with the existing team.  On the contrary, I got someone who was a junior designer who did not have much.  I think he had zero Dubai experience, but he has excelled so much.  He’s my go-to person now.  So, whoever I hire now has like intuition.

Yes. Correctly said.  It is a lot of whether this person will vibe with the whole team.  That is important because they spend so much time.  Together.  Right.  Yes.  It’s only the weekends that they don’t see each other.  So, they should be able to gel with the existing members and they should vibe with the company ideologies.  So, I have now started like looking at personality when we are interviewing more than the experience and the high names of the companies they work with. That is not the criteria anymore, but it is challenging actually.  It’s really your good luck if you really find a good right person, right time.  The right person.

The Business-Oriented Partnership

Bilna: Now, one more thing like you mentioned about your husband.  He is also a business owner, right?  How has it impacted your lives in the both pros and cons?  Like probably he has a busy season.  Then after that you have a busy season.  You know, that could be a con side and the pros could be that he can actually give you tips on how he runs his business. So how is that a journey like?

Sneha: So, he is a Marwadi.  Marwadi is a community who does business right from the day they are born.  They only talk about business with their family.  In fact, my mother-in-law also, her first question is how’s work? How’s your business?  Any new projects?  Then she will talk about rest.  So, their perspective towards business is very different.

Bilna: It’s a business family.

Sneha: Absolutely.  Like he has never done a job versus me who has always, in my family, there was no one who has done business.  We have always been job people who get fixed salary every month and we’re happy with it.  So, he has been a great support in terms of there were seasons when I did not sign any project.  At one point I had 11 inquiries.  None of them converted and it made me nervous because I can see the steam and that is the biggest expense. Their salaries have to go on time.  Then there is this office, looks beautiful and fancy, but there is a rent to it and I become paranoid. Like what is happening?  What is what are we doing wrong?  Should I reduce my design fee?  And he was like calm down.  This is one of those days.

Bilna:  He’s used to seeing that.

Sneha: How do I expect every month to be the same?  Then it made sense because it was the holiday season.  July, August.  That’s why I wasn’t getting any sign up and then come September.

Bilna: Everybody started coming back.

Sneha: So, he has been my mentor and we understand this madness. You wipe well again in that.  We both actually are touch wood.  We are not that lovey-dovey couple.  Even on our dinner date we discuss what is happening, what should we do next, where I want a bigger office.

Bilna: you discuss your dreams together?

Sneha: So, we understand each other’s projects and his is events. So, his second half of the year is crazy busy and my entire year is busy.  So, we just find those vibes that come together.  We try to find; we keep weekends to ourselves.  We ensure that at least two meals are had together.  It could be breakfast or dinner, lunch or dinner.  And we just try.  This is like a great partnership. He’s the best partner I could have.

Bilna: And in your case, your husband is in your business as well.  So, is it good or bad?

The Strength of Distinct Roles

Sunit: I think in a way it’s good.  I think because he understands what’s going on.  In a way it has more pros than cons.  I’ll talk about the cons first is that we don’t know where to draw the line between professional and personal.  Even in our personal space, we’re always talking about business.  So, it’s that.  But other than that, I see more pros.  I know a lot of people say, how do you work with your husband?  It’s just like, doesn’t it get too much for you?  But we have very different roles.  Like, you know, he defined what each of you are doing.  So, I am more with my design team.  I spend a lot more time with my design team and I’m responsible for basically generating business for my company.  And Gurmeet, my husband, he’s more on the operation side of things.  So, it’s a very, very distinct role.

Bilna: So, you don’t get into each other’s way.

Sunit: Sometimes we do.  Like when we have to meet, we obviously sometimes we have a lot of client meetings together. But on a day-to-day basis, it’s very distinct roles.  And so, I see more pros because in this kind of business, just single brain is not going to work.  You need different perspectives to come together to make this business work, right? So, we have different personalities, I have different thought process, he has different thought process.  So, we come together, obviously, there’s a lot of disagreements and a lot of times, but, you know, as we both are business owners, we both are partners, we come to a conclusion.  And I think that’s how we balance it out because we have very different roles and we’re very accountable for what we do.

Like he takes complete responsibility about operations.  And I make sure that the client that we are getting is the right client.  We’re going to be able to, you know, exceed and make this client happy.  And our designs are going to be bespoke designs, you know.  So that’s where I come in and then he looks after the operation.  So, it’s a good balance, I feel.

Bilna: Now we can come to the end of the conversation.

Honesty and Transparency with Clients

Bilna: So, I would like to ask you the same question to that happened in your business probably.  And how did you overcome that mistake or some challenge?  And how did you overcome that?  And what’s your advice to any woman who wants to be in this industry?  I mean, to start a business in this industry?

Sunit: So, I feel one of the mistakes that we made was very early on when we started this project was every client when they engage with us, because we do design interiors and we do landscape as well, right?  So, the client wanted a very luxurious looking landscaping, landscape design.  So, we produced the design based on that. And then when we gave the quotation, he said, this is not my budget.  It is, I like the design, but this is not my budget.  And then it was a bit of a challenge to come to agreement.  He said, well, you have given this design, now you have to do it.  But he didn’t want because the budgets that the design was a very expensive design.

So that’s where that was a mistake wherein, we always have to have that clarity right from the time we start.  So, every aspect, because at the end of the day, money makes a very big difference.  How much money you put into a space, the more luxurious it can get.  So, it’s very, very important to understand from a client’s perspective, what are the budgets they’re looking to spend and how are we going to match their vision of a space with the actual execution.

So, we have taken that as a big lesson as a company in that, because that was a very challenging thing for us to overcome with that client.  But you learn from your mistakes.  So, we have this conversation very upfront with the client that this is what you like and this is what’s going to cost you.  Are you okay with that?  And they say, no, this is not okay with me.  Then we work around with that.  We have more discussions.  We bounce ideas.  We come to basically a settlement. But that was something where I think the budgets play a very big role in how you move forward.  And a lot of the clients, to be very honest, they come with their budgets nowadays.  They say, I do not want to exceed this.

Bilna: Yes. Then it makes it very clear for you.

Sunit: Yeah. So, we’re not going to produce a design that’s going to cause them two million or a million dirham to execute, for example, if that’s not their budgets.  At the same time, it’s going to still look very stunning.  So, we have the very honest, upfront conversation.

And the clients appreciate that.  Trust me, every person these days, they want their lives to be simple.  As it is, a life is complicated.  So, the simpler you can make it for them by having some upfront conversations, the more they appreciate it. And they like the transparency and honesty.  So, we balance our design and our execution based on the budget.  So that has been a big learning for us personally in our business.

Bilna: And any final advice to any women who want to be into this industry, who want to start something in this industry?

Consistency and Mental Strength

Sunit: Yeah, I think absolutely do it.  I think it’s a lot of scope.  And I think you just have to be very clear in what you want to do.