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Ray Palmer's Flying Saucer and Metaphysical Questions Answered By The Inner Circle Through Mark Probert 1954


A case of transcendental communication dazzling in scope is that of Mark Probert, who was the channel for 'The Inner Circle.'  Mark Probert (1907-1969) was affiliated with Meade Layne and his Borderland Sciences Research Association.  As there were no bestsellers about this case, he isn't as well known today as such 20th Century trance channelers as Edgar Cayce and Jane Roberts.  Expanding upon the 2012 blog articles about Mark Probert (including 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7), I've decided to present some further transcripts of 'The Inner Circle.'  Two culminations of the research are the books The Magic Bag (First Printing 1949) and The Coming of The Guardians: An Interpretation of the "Flying Saucers" as Given From the Other Side of Life (1953).  
 
Mark Probert has commented about his trance mediumship: "Some of the people who communicate through me are said to be very eloquent and learned, and I wish I could hear them for myself . . . The talk is mostly philosophical and scientific, and since I never had more than a sixth grade grammar school education, it is quite beyond my own normal knowledge and vocabulary."  An expert stenographer made transcripts of sessions during the early years of the work and then Mark was able to listen to the trance communication with audio tape recordings that were made.

In 1954 and 1955, a few issues of Mystic Magazine presented question and answer transcripts of Mark Probert trance sessions.  The first of these transcripts was published in the August 1954 issue and is presented without any deletions in this article.

left to right: portraits by Mark Probert of his 'Controls' Ramon Natalli, Yada Di Shi'ite and Professor Alfred Luntz of 'The Inner Circle' teachers of light (Mystic Magazine issue 5)
  

An introductory paragraph preceded the question and answer transcript.  Mark Probert was identified in the article as "the most amazing medium in America today" and his trance mediumship sessions were announced as the subject for a planned series of articles with an opportunity for readers to submit their own questions for Mark's "controls" to answer.  In this first transcript, a 'seance circle' participant identified by the initials 'RGM' is left unidentified.

As I've commented in other blog articles concerning legitimate 'channelers,' the perspective of entities speaking through a person should be understood as being 'more-knowing' rather than 'all-knowing.'  Each perspective of a 'channeled entity' reflects a unique chronology of experiences and may even to some extent be limited by the beliefs and spiritual perspectives of people interacting with the messages at the time the transcendental communication is given.  This is evident in the following transcript when one considers the aspects of UFOlogy expressed on this occasion by 'Professor Luntz' as such concerns as public readiness are no longer relevant at the current time.

Kevin Ryerson's 'John' is quoted in Spirit Communication: The Soul's Path (1989):
 
Spirit guides and teachers are not infallible in the information they give.  Advice from them should be taken as just that—advice or counseling from one who perhaps has a broader spectrum of life experience.


Individuals always have the ability of free will and can alter any predictions made for them.  We encourage you to scrutinize all information received from any channeled source to know that you make the final decisions in all of your life affairs. 


Meeting held Monday, 15 March, 1954 at 8:00 P.M.

Purpose: To answer questions sent in by Ray Palmer.  [Editor of Mystic Magazine]

MP: This is March 15, 1954.  This is Mark Probert speaking.  In a few moments I will go into trance, and questions asked by Ray Palmer in his letter of March 2nd will be presented to my teachers of the Inner Circle.

Prof. Luntz: How do you do, I am Professor Luntz.

Irene Probert: How are you this evening, Professor?

Prof. Luntz: Very well indeed, my dear, and how about you folks?

RGM: Oh, we're fine Professor.

Prof. Luntz: Now my friends, I am quite aware of what is desired of us this evening.  The idea is I believe to answer some questions that were sent to you by your friend, Ray Palmer.

IP: Yes, Professor, I believe I shall read the complete question first and then break it down as RGM has typed it out here so you can give more complete answers, don't you think so?

Prof. Luntz: I think that would be quite well, yes.  But before you start [I] would like to answer my question, the one concerning myself.

IP: That's fine, whatever you wish to do.  The question pertaining to you, Ray Palmer says, "Who are you, Dr. Luntz?  Will you give a specific introduction of yourself to our readers telling who you were, where you lived, what you did, and where you are now and what is your occupation at present?"

Prof. Luntz: Well, I do not believe that it is very important to make any statement concerning my own life on Earth.  It would not further the work one little bit.  To say simply that I am Professor Alfred Luntz as I have been doing these years and letting it go at that.  I think it would be sufficient but I do not think Ray Palmer will believe so.  To say more about my life on earth I rather feel would incriminate me.  That is a famous statement today, is it not?

RGM: Very true.

Prof. Luntz: Yes, and even the spooks do not like to be incriminated.

IP: Perhaps by telling where you are and what your occupation is at present might give those who read the answer in Mystic an idea of what does really take place when you're on that side of the veil, so to speak.

Prof. Luntz: Well, I will say this much that in my earth life I was a clergyman for the High Episcopal Church of England.  I was born of German and English parents.  I had some of my earlier schooling at the Eton School for Boys, later going to Germany where I attended Heidelberg and then later back to England going to the theological seminary at Oxford.  More than that I can't say and I feel fairly certain this bit of information concerning my personal life will be of little value to either Ray Palmer or the readers, but that is the best that I can do.  Now concerning my life in the present state, I certainly do not follow the path of the clergyman or the clergyman's life.  I pursue truth, truth to be found in many many fields; philosophical, scientific, metaphysical, occult.  There are many schools over here providing a vast number of things to study.  The life is pretty much the same as on earth.  Coming into the astral world you do find yourself floating aimlessly through space with nothing to do.  It is an active life and can be a very happy one.  But by the same token, depending upon your desire to adjust yourself to the new conditions one can find it beautiful or otherwise.

RGM: May I ask you a question, Professor?

Prof. Luntz: Please do.

RGM: In reference to the studying that you said you were conducting on the other side, you said it was somewhat similar to earth life.  Do you have books as such?

Prof. Luntz: Yes sir, as such.

RGM: Maybe I should have left the "as such" off.

Prof. Luntz: Well no, I think you are quite right in expressing yourself in that way, quite right indeed, because many individuals would believe, had I simply said, "Yes we have books," or had you simply stated "Do you have books," that would not have been sufficient, because many would have taken an imaginative turn believing that one  simply imagined they have books.  Well it is not any more imaginative than are the books in your world.  There are libraries, great vast libraries, great schools, great music halls with instruments to play.  This I know must be difficult to comprehend.  I was going to say believe, but it is not a matter of believing.  One must comprehend and understand before one can believe or disbelieve anything, eh what?

RGM: That's right.

Prof. Luntz: Yes, it is a real, concrete world if one can speak about concreteness anywhere under any circumstances.

RGM: Do you find that the process of learning is easier in your world than it was when you lived in a physical body?

Prof. Luntz: Yes, I do sir, because my mind now is clear.  I am not caught up in the fears, so-called unconscious or conscious, that keep one from having freedom of mind.  Here on the earth plane where you are, you have those conditions to deal with; the unconscious fear seeping into the so-called conscious self where the individual is not even aware of what is happening.  Remembrances of many lifetimes and the fears gathered there besides those we develop right in this, your present lifetime.  In my world, especially if one has had the kind of training I was given; fortunate indeed was I to have it after coming over here.  It certainly completely obliterated all the feelings of guilt I acquired when passing into the astral world, guilt concerning the things I had taught about God and the heavenly state and hell, only to find no such states existed.  Yes, I was fortunate to get the education that I did.  It brought me completely up and out of the terrible fears and feelings of guilt.

IP: This education that you're speaking of that helped you so much was the education that you acquired after passing into the astral, is that not true?

Prof. Luntz: That is what I said, my dear, yes, yes.

RGM: Perhaps Mr. Palmer would be interested in knowing a little bit of your work with the Inner Circle.

Prof. Luntz: Well sir, after I had received my initiation which was my education or rather my re-education into higher understanding, I was taken into what is called  the Inner Circle; the Inner Circle being a group of men and women, sixteen in all, that come from all walks of life, having vast experience in many fields.  I do indeed feel greatly honored to have been initiated into that group.  Of course, all of the members like myself have other and perhaps more mystical reasons for forming this circle and some of those reasons do not concern us alone but concern the boy through whom we speak and have to do with certain experiences he had in past lives in which we played a part; sometimes a small part and sometimes a large one.  A hint of it may be found in my saying, "No one of us ever commit  an act of any kind that we do not receive the  reward for it or the penalty at sometime or another."  I can't say more about that at the present time.

IP: Would you like to have me present these questions now to you, Professor?

Prof. Luntz: Well, my dear, you may start wherever you see fit and I will do what I can about it and that which I can't answer I will simply depart and leave another to answer.

IP: Well, the first question, I will read all of the first question and then break it up.  Is our government or other governments engaged in any definite effort to discredit or throw a smokescreen over the flying saucers, or do they know more than they admit and are they making constructive efforts to either resolve the puzzle or turn it to good effect?  Now the first is, is our government or other governments engaged in a definite effort to discredit or throw a smokescreen over the flying saucers?

Prof. Luntz: No, they are not making an effort to discredit them, they are simply trying to shield the general public from knowing the truth concerning them, for they know what the people as masses are like.  They have no desire to panic their people, which, to bring out the complete and whole truth suddenly, would surely do.

IP The next question.  Do government or military officials know more than they admit regarding flying saucers?

Prof. Luntz: Indeed they do.

IP: Are constructive efforts being made either to resolve the puzzle or turn it to good effect?

Prof. Luntz: Of course they are endeavoring to find a way of explaining these things in a manner that will come as a shock to the people, and they certainly will in time use the knowledge they have gained concerning these discs or saucers for new and highly advanced methods in aeronautics.  And that is not the least of it.  They've learned considerable more concerning the atomic world, the world of matter, chemistry, biology, heat, and many other things that are branches of those that I have mentioned.

IP: The second question is: Do you know anything about the most recent discoveries of scientists regarding the upper atmosphere and is anything being kept secret regarding it outside of a military nature?  Is it true that our atmosphere, using the term loosely, extends at least 75,000 miles outward and that it contains within it hitherto unsuspected bodies, such as orbital clusters or of meteorites, dust and so forth?  Now the question is: What are the most recent discoveries of scientists regarding the upper atmosphere?

Prof. Luntz: I am pondering the wiseness of answering that question, because it does have some military nature to it and I do not know whether I had better answer it.

IP: He asks, is there anything of a non military nature being kept secret by scientists who have made new discoveries about our upper atmosphere.

Prof. Luntz: Anything concerning the upper atmosphere at this present time does in one way or another belong to the military.  Would you object to that, sir?  Would you have something to say regarding it, Mr. M.?

RGM: Well, I am quite sure that anything concerning the upper atmosphere has a military significance at the present time.  Perhaps you are quite right in withholding comment on that question at the present time because the information that has been acquired by scientists is classified and it perhaps would be unwise to release information of that nature.

Prof. Luntz: Thank you sir, that is precisely the way I feel about it.  I want to say something concerning the atmosphere.  I do not know, of course, where Ray Palmer may have gotten his facts concerning the atmosphere extending outward some 75,000 miles.  In my observations of it and in my studies of it I find it does not go farther than 80 miles and then it is so rarified, one can hardly call it atmosphere.

IP: That answers the latter part of the question.  The last is: are hitherto unsuspected bodies rotating in orbits around our earth?

Prof. Luntz: Yes, saucers.  They have been very unexpected.  They are still there.

IP: They always shall be, I suppose?

Prof. Luntz: Well, for quite some time.  They are there in what may be called other frequencies than we here, your scientific men have known about before.  They have been but recently detected with certain instruments.  The honorable Menzel, I believe that is his name, eh?

RGM: Yes, that is right.

Prof. Luntz: He knows they are there.

RGM: What was his purpose in writing the book the way he did?

Prof. Luntz: To hide that fact, thinking the authorities believing that for a man of his position to make such statements, they would act as final thoughts concerning the discs, and the people would forget about it, but people are human beings, not sheep; although they act like it so often.  Human beings are thinkers.

RGM: Was it Menzel's idea to write this book himself or was he put up to it by individuals in government or the military?

Prof. Luntz: That is right, it was suggested that he do so.  Carry on my dear.

IP: Question number four.  Do you know anything of a civilization whose cities are now buried under the sands of the desert at the south of the Grand Canyon and can you describe it and tell how it came to be buried, even how it may be found?

Prof. Luntz: I think that I would rather leave that to my colleague, Yada Di Shi'ite.

IP: I see.  Question number five.  What will be the probably effect on our weather of the hydrogen bomb tests now going on or soon to occur both in Russia and our own test areas?

Prof. Luntz: I think I shall leave that also either to Yada or to Ramon Natalli.

IP: Fine, then you have answered all the rest of the questions, Professor Luntz, and so perhaps we will wait until the other members come on.

Natalli: How do you do, I am Ramon Natalli.

IP: Good evening, nice to have you with us this evening, Ramon.

Natalli: Thank you, it is very nice to be again in your home.

IP: Yes, Ramon.  Of course I know you realize what we are doing here this evening, answering the questions that Ray Palmer has sent in.  Would you like to give a brief biography of your life?  Professor Luntz did and I think Ray Palmer would appreciate it if you would like to do so.  That's just up to you of course.  Don't hesitate to say no if you wish to say no.

Natalli: I think all I shall say is that I was born in Rome, Italy and I lived in the time of the great and most honorable Galilleo.

IP: Did you know him personally?

Natalli: Yes, this man suffered greatly at the hands of the Inquisition.

IP: Yes, we've heard of that.

Natalli: I, of course, had no interest in religion and he had but little.

IP: You were interested in astronomy at that time, were you not?

Natalli: Yes, and of course he was far advanced from me in that field, but greatly persecuted, made to suffer terrible degradations.  I was agnostic.  If there was a God, said I, there was a God and that's all there was to it, there was no need to argue, for whether He was or not there was nothing I could do about it.  If there was one then I certainly could not know Him, therefore I would still have no argument.  I belonged to the Royal house of Astronomy.  It is still to me the greatest field of science.  In studying the vastness of the outer regions of space and the untold billions and trillions of bodies therein, one need not think of a God.  That in itself is inspiring enough and it should have told me that if all of this can exist and continue to do so through endless millenniums of time, then why not I.  In the field of matter it is quite clear, even more so today, that matter cannot be destroyed, how is it possible for the very essence of  matter called life to be destroyed,  I did not at that time expect to survive the death of my physical body and therefore it was a pleasant surprise to discover I did.  In this discovery I immediately set about with the greatest of joy to continue my favorite work.  As we said some years ago, the great eye your men of science have made today —

IP: You are speaking of Palomar observatory?

Natalli: That is correct.  It would see only another fraction of the vast number of bodies in space.  You cannot now build a greater, a larger telescope.  It would offer you no better view.  Man must now endeavor to move his mind beyond the realm of the power of the telescope that is there in Palomar.  More than this, my most extensive studies have conclusively shown to me that all of these island universes, all of it is consciousness and no more than that.  When, or if consciousness ceases to exist, all therein called outer bodies, all motion will cease with it.  Some of your scientists have said in your present day that the only thing that does exist is motion, but motion is a thing of the senses in the same manner as is all connected or coming out of motion.  So I say when consciousness ceases to be, all that consciousness brought forth will cease to be.  The thought that your present day scientists have taken matter and pulled it to pieces believing that they have found a something called the adhesive substance or glue of the atom.  These they call mesons.  Next they are going to have to find what the nature is of the matter that holds the matter together.  When there is cosmic radiation the particles that reach to the earth and bury themselves deep, deep within the earth, upwards of a thousand feet, these particles are mostly mesons.  The greater part of substance that these mesons come from are absorbed in the earth's atmosphere.  Most of them at the high level of what is called the ionosphere.  Yes, you want to say something?

IP: Yes I do, Ramon.  What would you have to say in regards to scientists explaining what an atom is, that is 10 percent something and 90 percent nothing?

Natalli: All I can say about the atom is that it is—this is going to sound strange perhaps—photons moving in a continuous yet periodical or quantum arc.  In other words, light waves moving in frequencies of various durations.  Does this make sense to you, sir?

RGM: When you say light waves moving in frequencies of various duration, that's not completely clear to me.  Maybe you could phrase it a little differently.

Natalli: Frequencies is concerned with duration.

RGM: We think of so many oscillations per second as being frequency.

Natalli: Yes.

RGM: And duration has the connotation of time.

Natalli: That is what I mean, moving in so many vibrations in time.  To name the time would be impossible, it would have to be worked out mathematically.  Is that better?

RGM: Yes, I think that is a little more clear.

Natalli: To speak about the atom is all right as long as you do not believe you are saying anything of lasting meaning, m-m-m-m.

IP: My question, Ramon.  I wanted you to express yourself pertaining to the idea of 90 percent nothingness.  Is there such a possibility of something working in nothing?

Natalli: This is something again, 90 percent nothing.  One cannot speak of 90 percent nothing.  One may speak of 90 percent something or 10 percent something but not 90 percent nothing or 10 percent nothing.

IP: That is what I think too.

Natalli: That is like trying to make something more out of one zero by putting three or four or a thousand more zeros with it.

IP: Yes.

Natalli:  This is having nothing and adding nothing to it.  But the part that is supposedly 10 percent something, these are not solids as man has come to think of the word solid.  Scientists speak of a substance moving through space, vast fields of it, of great density, yet they will say some of this substance is gaseous and others in more or less solid state.  There is no such state as a solid state.  There are degrees of what may be called solidification but yet one cannot say that.  There is more vibrations moving or vibrating in a given number of frequencies or oscillations per second, or split second that creates a measurable surface to man, to the senses, or to the instruments man creates.  What would you think of that, sir?

RGM: I think that is a very good explanation.

Natalli: Thank you.  Now as for what the scientists have discovered in the outer realms of space, there is yet more than the saucers.

IP: Now that you are referring to the question number two that Professor Luntz answered in part?

Natalli: Yes.

IP: I guess you picked up my thought there.  It was hoping you might elaborate upon it.

Natalli: Moving from outer space towards the earth is some of this substance that is of such great density.  It is substance that may be called the debris of bodies being broken down in interstellar space.  The island universes are constantly breaking down and building up.  Matter, while it is dissipating vast quantities of itself into space, is also automatically building up.  Therefore the universe shall never be destroyed, or run down, or run out of energy, or run down to what is called zero inertia.

RGM: Is this a process of consciousness that causes this to take place?

Natalli: Yes it is, but when I make this statement your men of science will say that is purely a metaphysical statement and we cannot comment on it or pay any attention to it.  Your scientists today believe that somewhere in space matter is breaking down into a practical state of nothing-ness, and that in the course of time the universes will be loosely scattered, low grade energy.  There shall be no such time for such a happening, for this world of matter, and when I say this world I mean this state of matter in vibration came out of deeper realms or dimensions of what may for convenience sake be called calm.  And so it cannot be destroyed, it cannot evaporate into nothingness, it cannot move back into the field it once existed in or dimension of time, or field of motion.  It must stay in the position it was projected in unless another body is capable of stopping the motion that set it into being, or stopping the force that produced it out of these other time frames.

IP: That would mean to break up the vortex that it was formed in, wouldn't it.  Ramon, what would you say about the sun ever burning itself out?

Natalli: Of course not, the sun may at some time, which I may add it is working towards now and has been for quite a great period of time, towards becoming a super nova.  The sun you have in your present solar system is a very small sun.  It would be considered a dwarf star among other suns in space.

IP: Yes, I believe once you told us that there are suns that could hold millions of our suns and shake them around like beans in a rattle box.

Natalli: Yes, that is the truth.

RGM: When you speak about our sun becoming a super nova that will take place some great time in the future, will it not?

Natalli: Oh, it is a vast time in the future, but suns are very unpredictable.  The vast time from now may be only the next moment.  The substances in the sun are of a very unstable nature.

IP: The suns are not what we call solidified material, they're gaseous, is that not true?  I think you have told us about that.

Natalli: They are gaseous, yes, but gasses that are pressed into tremendous densities.

IP: Do you want to elaborate upon this; is it true that our atmosphere, using the term loosely, extends outward 75,000 miles?

Natalli: This question was sufficiently answered by my honorable colleague, Professor Alfred Luntz.

IP: Out to 80 miles?

Natalli: Yes.

IP: I will go into the next question then.  This is question number four.  Do you know anything of a civilization whose cities are now buried under the sands of the desert at the south of the Grand Canyon and can you describe it and tell how it came to be buried, even how it may be found?

Natalli: I will leave that to my colleage, Yada Di Shi'ite.

IP: All right.  Would you like to answer question five.  What will be the probable effect on our weather of the hydrogen bomb tests now going on or soon to occur both in Russia and in our own test areas?

Natalli: Russia has already exploded the hydrogen bomb in the wastes of Siberia, in fact she has exploded more than the one.  England exploded the hydrogen bomb in the wasteland of Australia.  The effects of this is going to be world wide causing great changes in weather of a violent nature, producing mostly very violent and sudden wind storms of tremendous velocity.  Besides the wind storms of a cyclonic nature, there will be a great precipitation of rain, water, meaning you will have many great rainstorms.

IP: Are these to happen all over the earth?

Natalli: No, but will, especially at the places where they were let loose, exploded.  It will cover a great part of this side of the earth, meaning here in your country, in England, in Russia, some in India but not very much.  Of course India has many violent rainstorms in the monsoon season.

IP: Do you think that the explosions that have taken place recently have had anything to do with the tornadoes in the middle west.

Natalli: These are only the forerunner of what is to be if the combination of these hydrogen  bombs goes on.

RGM: At one time in the writings of another individual it was stated that some of the atomic explosions on the earth had affected other planets in the solar system.  Did that actually take place and can it happen in the future?

Natalli: No, it is not affecting other planetary bodies in space.  Indeed the atom bomb is only letting loose one tenth of one percent of the total energy in U235.  That is a very small amount. huh?

RGM: Yes, that is true.

Natalli: Think, my friends, what would happen should all of it be let loose.

RGM: It would be a thousand times as great.

Natalli: That is right.  Then you could say certain other bodies in space would be affected.  It would affect in this way.  It would cause the positive and negative poles, what you call the magnetic poles, to be disrupted to such an extent as to cause the earth to fall out of balance, or what you call tip.  Do you want to say something?

RGM: I was just wondering, considering the increased energy that can be released in the hydrogen device compared to the heavy matter type of device isn't it possible that they might go too far in this direction and upset the balance of nature?

Natalli: It is always very likely because your men of science that are experimenting in the field of hydrogen explosions are not at all certain on the outcome.  They were not certain of the outcome of the experimental explosion of the atom bomb.

IP: What really happens to the atom in an atomic explosion.  Does it really explode or is that a sensible question?

Natalli: In a way it is, and in a way it is not.  The atom acts very much in its explosion like a dwarf star becoming a super star.  It is simply matter seeking to extend its field of operation thereby needing a greater volume of space than it had before.

IP: Does it expand and then contract, or does it just keep on expanding?

Natalli: It dissipates itself and is later absorbed by other particles in the atmosphere.  Would you, sir, have anything to say about that?

RGM: That seems to be the logical way the energy would to be dissipated because explosions so far have taken place in the atmosphere and that's where the energy would have to be dissipated.


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Ray Palmer's Flying Saucer and Metaphysical Questions Answered By The Inner Circle Through Mark Probert 1954

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