Half a month ago Imran Saleem posted on Facebook one of his controversial teaching Questions as is his practice to get people chipping in.
John Reynolds started to make some comments based upon the teaching of the Catholic Church.
This post is only put up for people to start to see the very real differences between someone like myself approaching Christianity from scratch at 13, and being baptised in the Spirit in 1972 that year, and having to reassess all I ever knew fed me through Methodism. What does the Bible actually teach? I began with Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee and also The Holy Spirit and You by Dennis and Rita Bennet.
Both the Outset Club for teenagers in Chesham Bois , Amersham , Bucks near London UK, and somebody from the Open Brethren who worked as a Director for Chubb Locks and invited some of us to his house in Old Amersham, both these folk at the same time were doing studies on Romans.
And reading the gospels, the letters and especially Romans is a great way to start understanding Christian teaching for the Individual.
At times I am riveted by the details of the teachings John writes. Some are Catholic ideas. Some are straight Biblical quotes and some are history as penned by Catholics. I have no reason to believe that all the Catholic deaths are historical and this indeed is a terrible terrible shame on all the church, although I have long come to learn that the devil is really at war with the Name of God, so any way of bringing it into disrepute by scandal and killing, he will use and direct mankind into.
Once or twice I got so mad with john's position I was incredulous, and wanted just to end the futile conversation. Whether a Jesuit organisation is being paid by Google to keep various Christian groups entertained on the net with crazy teachings I have no idea. It even crossed my mind that John Reynolds is a Facebook profile invented purely for training Jesuits or new ministers how to argue their faith.
Chris Welch The Bible relates Jesus breathed on the disciples and they received the spirit. Some days later after the Ascension the disciples were filled with the spirit.From experience it seems now we can have both at once and this was the original plan of Jesus because he used the phrase Repent and be baptised and be filled with the holy spirit
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds You stated: "The Bible relates Jesus breathed on the disciples and they received the spirit"
Breathed on them to be able to do what?
John 20:21-23 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch What is written in the other gospels?
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Answer my question first...breathed on them to do what?
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch And Mrs Smith handed them a cup of tea and said I hope you do very well in the exams tomorrow. Do you think that drinking tea helps with exams? May or it may not the clause could be joined or it might not
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Here's the answer:
Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.
John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.
John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.
Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?
Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth.
Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.
Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.
John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ's ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an "indulgence").
2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.
2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.
James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.
1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.
Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch You probably don’t see that everything you write has an agenda that isn’t the Spirit of God.
So you meander around verse picking to prove your point but I can assure you it really is squeezing ugly sisters feet into Cinderella’s shoe.
It’s brilliant to not have an agenda, to be stripped of them so you can read unhindered.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Just your personal opinion...Truths you disagree with and dislike are not of the Holy Spirit or of God or Biblical.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch I agree with the loosing and the binding and the forgiving and the withholding , but you place loads of Catholic things on the top that just aren’t there.
The end goal of the gospel is to produce as many Father level people as possible.
The end goal of Catholicism is to produce a few Queen Bees who rule over hives.
It’s quite a different gospel you preach.
The idolisation of heirarchy for no particular gain.
And don’t tell me I am wrong because I am right. Both Jesus and Moses rebuked your spirit.
Once when people were prophesying and some complained to Moses and Moses said would that everyone were prophets.
And Jesus more or less said the same thing when disciples were complaining “ they are not with us”referring to some who were casting out demons.
Catholics are filled with this demon spirit that comes straight from the world system.
The diligent shall rule.
If I have been diligent in the Spirit then I shall be used in rule situations.
If all you have done is study men’s doctrines but not obeyed what Christ is saying to you in your family , work and church, then you will find you don’t have authority because you haven’t actually been diligent.
“ My own vineyard I have not kept” etc
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "The idolisation of heirarchy for no particular gain."
Just your opinion...
“The Church” is Hierarchical
Matt. 16:18; 18:18- Jesus uses the word "ecclesia" only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.
Acts 20:17,28- Paul refers to both the elders or priests ("presbyteroi") and the bishops ("episkopoi") of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.
1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.
Eph. 4:11- the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.
Phil. 1:1- Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.
1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7- Christ's Church has bishops ("episkopoi") who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.
1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14- Christ's Church also has elders or priests ("presbyteroi") who serve the bishops.
1 Tim. 3:8- Christ's Church also has deacons ("diakonoi"). Thus, Jesus Christ's Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.
Exodus 28:1 and 19:6– shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood:
(1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1)
(2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1)
(3) Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6).
The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:
(1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1)
(2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7)
(3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6)
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "And Jesus more or less said the same thing when disciples were complaining “ they are not with us”referring to some who were casting out demons."
Note that the passage in question is 9,38-41, and that the apostles had been given the authority to cast out demons, and only they, back in 6,7. This, however, does not demean the authority of Jesus and His ability to delegate this authority the way in which he wants. We have to understand that Jesus was able then, just as He is able now, to discern when someone was doing something in His name. He had the freedom to permit the action to be carried out in His name or to let it be carried out without the benefit of the action having the power of His name behind it. Jesus Himself grants the power behind His name. No one can just use His power
without His permission, as if using His name was some sort of magical formula enabling one to tap into the power of Jesus without Him knowing anything about it.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "Catholics are filled with this demon spirit that comes straight from the world system"
More mere opinion.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Authority...?
Apostolic Succession, Ordination and Authority...the Laying on, or Imposition of Hands.
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION
The method by which the episcopacy has been derived from the Apostles to the present day. Succession means successive consecration by the LAYING ON OF HANDS, performing the functions of the Apostles, receiving their commission in a lineal sequence from the Apostles, succession in episcopal sees traced back to the Apostles, and successive communion with the apostolic See, i.e., the Bishop of Rome.
AUTHORITY IS TRANSFERRED BY THE SACRAMENT OF ORDINATION
Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.
Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."
Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the LAYING ON OF HANDS (ordination). This AUTHORITY has transferred BEYOND THE ORIGINAL TWELVE APOSTLES as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the LAYING ON OF HANDS BY A BISHOP. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the LAYING ON OF HANDS (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "OFFICE." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the LAYING ON OF HANDS (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in LAYING ON THE HANDS (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.
1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."
Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "LAYING ON OF HANDS," one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 - Moses LAID HANDS upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.
Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch That’s pure Catholic nonsense. Proverbs is the genuine.
The diligent shall rule.
It’s not opinion when you are sporting that demon hat.
Ofcourse “ only they”
They were the only ones at that point , they were the only ones doing the course.
It’s not a big deal to move in the Name of Jesus
But we do have to train our senses in righteousness
Catholics talk such nonsense about special restrictions here special restrictions there all based on one person called JUSTIN who wasn’t an apostle and was probably facing a time of deep crisis in churches that were not very established.
You are as bad as the people that started worshipping Gideons ephod and the brass snake raised in the wilderness.
It’s alright. Peter is alive in heaven so is JUSTIN but they are irrelevant because the agent who is here on Earth is God Himself, the Holy Spirit.
He can manage things. I know you think it difficult you Catholics but the Holy Spirit has been around since the Beginning. He isn’t the part of the Godhead with L plates.
He was sent to lead into all truth. If that’s not the same as the Popes truth, or Jesuit truth or the truth of the Black Pope
Guess what gets modified.
Correct. Catholic teaching.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch When Jesus corrected the twelve each time they manifested wrong spirits as do the Catholics in most that they do, it’s a good job they didn’t turn to him with their lips upturned saying “ Mere opinion”.
And after three and a half years they were ready to lead this new entity called church.
They no longer called fire down from heaven on villages
They allowed little children to come near.
They no longer disputed who was the greatest among them . It was irrelevant, they got on with serving God.
They no longer argued and fussed and fighted saying “ your opinion” because they knew Him who was from the beginning.
In a way, after the dreadful weekend of the Cross they had all come to learn they knew nothing save what Christ was doing in them at that moment. And it was the simplicity of this Word this life that they had handled touched and tasted that they passed on that others could have fellowship with them and this Life.
The dreadful mess that Catholics make of these verses.
Priests don’t live and function together in any kind of attractive way that is a Light to the world. They have been duped to accept formalism instead of the real Life of Christ, and so ofcourse nothing really works. Priests don’t love each other, they are just local minions in a religious system of works and liturgies.
The Life of Christ actually works and baptism in the Spirit and living in the Spirit is a real thing.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "And after three and a half years they were ready to lead this new entity called church"
Agreed!!!
FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of His Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic.
The Church Is One (John 17:1-26, Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25-27, Rev. 19:7-8)
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19-20, Rev. 5:9-10)
The Church Is Apostolic (Succession) (Eph. 2:19-20)
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Any idiot church can say they are one and maintain a few pillars
Islam
Mormonism
Anglicanism
Scientology
Not even evangelicals who maintain more fundamental beliefs than Catholics are one.
Just saying a church is Holy doesn’t mean anything if your Pope was about to be arrested by Interpol June 21st after a Solstice tip-off of what he was going to do to a youngster.
We were there a week later. There has been a media blackout so nobody knows anything.
The Interpol agents were badly beaten and hospitalised.
When we were there the day a new cardinal was being sworn in there was quite a police presence. We ofcourse have no idea what is it isn’t normal police presence.
It’s quite easy to form these type of pillars of belief or stance and then say you adhere to them.
This IS THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
Step by step thinking
A people and their law book or manual.
Israel in the Old Testament were never quite as simple as two tablets of Laws and that’s that
Or even all the laws of Deuteronomy....
No, as a church or ekklesia in the wilderness they had to follow a pillar of fire by night and cloud by day.
Jesus stated the new foundation. Those who follow the Spirit they are the sons of God.
And as He said
Just like the wind you cannot second guess the Spirit.
So as in the Old Testament everything was Spirit and Word right through the Tabernacle, culminating with Shekinah
So it is now in the Church built upon apostles and prophets then and now, and following hard after the Spirit.
Legitimacy through long lines of formal pronouncement and the blessing of one figurehead is nuts.
Why? Jesus makes it plain ..... if a pope is not following the Spirit, no amount of ritual of blessing is going to work .
The Holy Spirit has always looked after things.
Yes, Samuel anointed both Saul and DAvid , but the common denominator wasn’t the “ line “ through Saul it was the faithful servant Samuel.
The Pope wasn’t even asked by God to get involved with Smith Wigglesworth and the person the Spirit used him to raise up, DAvid DuPlessis.
The Pope was never asked by God to have anything to do with George Jeffries and Reinhard Bonke.
The Holy Spirit said a young man is going to come to your house I want you to bless this last man.
Rheinhard Just happened to be doing a sightseeing trip of London before returning from his course at Rees Howells Bible College. He spied the plaque on the wall of George Jeffries house. He knocked in the door to learn more.
George found strength to come and speak to Rheinhard and then he prayed and blessed Bonnie with all his remaining strength.
By the time Bonnke was back in Germany he heard on the radio that the famous evangelist was dead.
Bonnke went on to win millions across Africa in several decades and see innumerable people baptised in the Spirit as they came to the Lord.
The Pope was nothing to do with any of that, but the Holy Spirit had actually in this case also organised a “ succession” but by no human organisation whatsoever. Rheinhard didn’t even know if the man on the plaque in the house was still alive.
This is the church.
And the Catholic Church isn’t actually Catholic at all because it doesn’t recognise any of these ministries,
never is involved with revival,
And doesn’t know how to lead people into being born again anyway.
It is a huge deception right across the earth, taking the Name of Jesus but having no power, apart from the human power of local police to bludgeon and beat innocent Interpol agents just carrying out their duty.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Sorry...just more hate filled opinion.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds John Reynolds Shouldn't the One True Church...the very same Church our Lord and Savior established in Jerusalem in A.D. 33 be the same age as Christianity?
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch The Church Jesus Christ Himself established in Jerusalem in A.D. 33 is the almost 2,000 year old One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The Catholic Church of the first century is that same as the Catholic Church of today.
As mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, it is true that the followers of Christ early became known as "Christians" (cf. Acts 11:26). The name Christian, however, was never commonly applied to the Church herself. In the New Testament itself, the Church is simply called "the Church." There was only one. In that early time there were not yet any break-away bodies substantial enough to be rival claimants of the name and from which the Church might ever have to distinguish herself. “The Way” was also an early reference to the One Church in the Book of Acts (Acts 18:26; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22). However, the Essene community at Qumran used the same designation to describe its mode of life. Very early in post-apostolic times, however, the Church did acquire a proper name--and precisely in order to distinguish herself from rival bodies (like the Essene community at Qumran) which by then were already beginning to form. The name that the Church acquired when it became necessary for her to have a proper name was the name by which she has been known ever since-the Catholic Church.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Since the second half of the first century (50-100 A.D.) the Church Jesus Christ founded has been called the “Catholic Church”.
Ignatius converted to Christianity at a young age. Tradition identifies Ignatius, along with his friend Polycarp, as disciples of John the Apostle. Later in his life Ignatius was chosen to serve as a Bishop of Antioch.
Jesus Christ taught divinely revealed Truth to the Apostle John who handed it on to St. Ignatius…who wrote this:
"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 107 - 110).
We see from this short text that by the end of the first century the following has already been well established, there are Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and especially the term “Eucharist” and the formal name of the Church.
Ignatius uses this formal name of the Church our Lord Jesus Christ established (A.D. 33) as if it is already widely known.
Sure sounds like the Catholic Church of today….don’t you think?
When was the word "Catholic" first used?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shczHGr290g
02 min, 08 sec
By Jimmy Akin, former Protestant
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YOUTUBE.COM
When was the word "Catholic" first used?
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Pope Francis impending arrest...proof please?
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Succession
Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination
Acts 1:15-26 – the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.
Acts 1:20 – a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”
Acts 1:22 – literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.
Acts 6:6 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 – even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
Acts 14:23 – the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 – preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 – Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 – Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 – Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 – again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 – Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 – Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 – at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 – this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 – the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.
1 John 4:6 – whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Exodus 18:25-26 – Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 – the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 – the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”
Numbers 16:40 – shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 – shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 – Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.
Sirach 45:15 – Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Ritual
At the Last Supper, Jesus Christ, GOD, gave us a Grace filled RITUAL...
Jesus Institutes the Eucharist / More Proofs of the Real Presence
Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 – Jesus says, this IS my body and blood. Jesus does not say, this is a symbol of my body and blood.
Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19-20 – the Greek phrase is “Touto estin to soma mou.” This phraseology means “this is actually” or “this is really” my body and blood.
1 Cor. 11:24 – the same translation is used by Paul – “touto mou estin to soma.” The statement is “this is really” my body and blood. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever declare something without making it so.
Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19 – to deny the 2,000 year-old Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, Protestants must argue that Jesus was really saying “this represents (not is) my body and blood.” However, Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke, had over 30 words for “represent,” but Jesus did not use any of them. He used the Aramaic word for “estin” which means “is.”
Matt. 26:28; Mark. 14:24; Luke 22:20 – Jesus’ use of “poured out” in reference to His blood also emphasizes the reality of its presence.
Exodus 24:8 – Jesus emphasizes the reality of His actual blood being present by using Moses’ statement “blood of the covenant.”
1 Cor. 10:16 – Paul asks the question, “the cup of blessing and the bread of which we partake, is it not an actual participation in Christ’s body and blood?” Is Paul really asking because He, the divinely inspired writer, does not understand? No, of course not. Paul’s questions are obviously rhetorical. This IS the actual body and blood. Further, the Greek word “koinonia” describes an actual, not symbolic participation in the body and blood.
1 Cor. 10:18 – in this verse, Paul is saying we are what we eat. We are not partners with a symbol. We are partners of the one actual body.
1 Cor. 11:23 – Paul does not explain what he has actually received directly from Christ, except in the case when he teaches about the Eucharist. Here, Paul emphasizes the importance of the Eucharist by telling us he received directly from Jesus instructions on the Eucharist which is the source and summit of the Christian faith.
1 Cor. 11:27-29 – in these verses, Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of the Lord. If this is just a symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ.
1 Cor. 11:30 – this verse alludes to the consequences of receiving the Eucharist unworthily. Receiving the actual body and blood of Jesus in mortal sin results in actual physical consequences to our bodies.
1 Cor. 11:27-30 – thus, if we partake of the Eucharist unworthily, we are guilty of literally murdering the body of Christ, and risking physical consequences to our bodies. This is overwhelming evidence for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. These are unjust penalties if the Eucharist is just a symbol.
Acts 2:42 – from the Church’s inception, apostolic tradition included celebrating the Eucharist (the “breaking of the bread”) to fulfill Jesus’ command “do this in remembrance of me.”
Acts 20:28 – Paul charges the Church elders to “feed” the Church of the Lord, that is, with the flesh and blood of Christ.
Matt. 6:11; Luke 11:3 – in the Our Father, we ask God to give us this day our daily bread, that is the bread of life, Jesus Christ.
Matt. 12:39 – Jesus says no “sign” will be given except the “sign of the prophet Jonah.” While Protestants focus only on the “sign” of the Eucharist, this verse demonstrates that a sign can be followed by the reality (here, Jesus’ resurrection, which is intimately connected to the Eucharist).
Matt. 19:6 – Jesus says a husband and wife become one flesh which is consummated in the life giving union of the marital act. This union of marital love which reflects Christ’s union with the Church is physical, not just spiritual. Thus, when Paul says we are a part of Christ’s body (Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23,30-31; Col. 1:18,24), he means that our union with Christ is physical, not just spiritual. But our union with Christ can only be physical if He is actually giving us something physical, that is Himself, which is His body and blood to consume (otherwise it is a mere spiritual union).
Luke 14:15 – blessed is he who eats this bread in the kingdom of God, on earth and in heaven.
Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24-25 – Jesus commands the apostles to “do this,” that is, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice, in remembrance of Him.
Luke 24:26-35 – in the Emmaus road story, Jesus gives a homily on the Scriptures and then follows it with the celebration of the Eucharist. This is the Holy Mass, and the Church has followed this order of the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist for 2,000 years.
Luke 24:30-31,35 – Jesus is known only in the breaking of bread. Luke is emphasizing that we only receive the fullness of Jesus by celebrating the Eucharistic feast of His body and blood, which is only offered in its fullness by the Catholic Church.
John 1:14 – literally, this verse teaches that the Word was made flesh and “pitched His tabernacle” among us. The Eucharist, which is the Incarnate Word of God under the appearance of bread, is stored in the tabernacles of Catholic churches around the world.
John 21:15,17 – Jesus charges Peter to “feed” His sheep, that is, with the Word of God through preaching and the Eucharist.
Acts 9:4-5; 22:8; 26:14-15 – Jesus asks Saul, “Why are you persecuting me?” when Saul was persecuting the Church. Jesus and the Church are one body (Bridegroom and Bride), and we are one with Jesus through His flesh and blood (the Eucharist).
1 Cor. 12:13 – we “drink” of one Spirit in the Eucharist by consuming the blood of Christ eternally offered to the Father.
Heb. 10:25,29 – these verses allude to the reality that failing to meet together to celebrate the Eucharist is mortal sin. It is profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
Heb. 12:22-23 – the Eucharistic liturgy brings about full union with angels in festal gathering, the just spirits, and God Himself, which takes place in the assembly or “ecclesia” (the Church).
Heb. 12:24 – we couldn’t come to Jesus’ sprinkled blood if it were no longer offered by Jesus to the Father and made present for us.
2 Pet. 1:4 – we partake of His divine nature, most notably through the Eucharist – a sacred family bond where we become one.
Rev. 2:7; 22:14 – we are invited to eat of the tree of life, which is the resurrected flesh of Jesus which, before, hung on the tree.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Are there sinners in the One True Church...YES!
Controversies and Scandals in the Church
Matt. 13:24-30 – scandals have always existed in the Church, just as they have existed outside of the Church. This should not cause us to lose hope in the Church. God’s mysterious plan requires the wheat and the weeds to be side by side in the Church until the end of time.
Matt. 13:47-50 – God’s plan is that the Church (the kingdom of heaven) is a net which catches fish of every kind, good and bad. God revealed this to us so that we will not get discouraged by the sinfulness of the Church’s members.
Matt. 16:18 – no matter how sinful its members conduct themselves, Jesus promised that the gates of death will never prevail against the Church.
Matt. 23:2-3 – the Jewish people would have always understood the difference between a person’s sinfulness and his teaching authority. We see that the sinfulness of the Pharisees does not minimize their teaching authority. They occupy the “cathedra” of Moses.
Matt. 26:70-72; Mark 14:68-70; Luke 22:57; John 18:25-27 – Peter denied Christ three times, yet he was chosen to be the leader of the Church, and taught and wrote infallibly.
Mark 14:45 – Judas was unfaithful by betraying Jesus. But his apostolic office was preserved and this did not weaken the Church.
Mark 14:50 – all of Jesus’ apostles were unfaithful by abandoning Him in the garden of Gethsemane, yet they are the foundation of the Church.
John 20:24-25 – Thomas the apostle was unfaithful by refusing to believe in Jesus’ resurrection, yet he taught infallibly in India.
Rom. 3:3-4 – unfaithful members do not nullify the faithfulness of God and the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Eph. 5:25-27 – just as Jesus Christ has both a human and a divine nature, the Church, His Bride, is also both human and divine. It is the holy and spotless bride of Christ, with sinful human members.
1 Tim. 5:19 – Paul acknowledges Church elders might be unfaithful. The Church, not rebellion and schism, deals with these matters.
2 Tim. 2:13 – if we remain faithless, God remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself.
2 Tim. 2:20 – a great house has not only gold and silver, but also wood and earthenware, some for noble use, some for ignoble use.
Jer. 24:1-10 – God’s plan includes both good and bad figs. The good figs will be rewarded, and the bad figs will be discarded.
1 Kings 6,7,8 – the Lord commands us to build elaborate places of worship. Some non-Catholics think that this is controversial and the money should be given to the poor, even though no organization does more for the poor of the world that the Catholic Church. We create our churches with beauty because Christ our King lives in the churches in the blessed Eucharist.
Matt. 26:8-9; Mark 14:4-5; John 12:5 – negative comments concerning the beauty of the Church are like the disciples complaining about the woman anointing Jesus’ head with costly oil. Jesus desires that we honor Him with our best gifts, not for Him, but for us, so that we realize He is God and we are His creatures.
Matt. 26:10-11 – Jesus says we have both a duty to honor God and give to the poor – a balanced life of reverence and charity.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch John Reynolds, the issue isn’t the traditional Protestant / Catholic divide thing of
Is it a symbol or is it actually Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit brought correction by identifying that when saints are gathered in Jesus Name there He is in our midst.
Not a symbol of Him.
Not a psychological idea of Him. But the actual Person of Jesus
If we eat and drink in remembrance of Him it is to us His Body and Blood.
Ignatius is wrong that a priest has to be present.
He was probably protecting against levity, but where the Holy Spirit is honoured there is no need for half the Catholic paraphernalia , or else Jesus would have said so.
God is Spirit. There is no benefit in believing for the actual physical body and blood of Jesus while on earth.
Demons get off on it, and like the idea of always causing harm to Jesus like they did the first time.
So no, we are not ever offering the same sacrifice . It is finished means it is finished.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch https://youtu.be/dB3bIfYIGcY
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Just more nonsensical, crazy opinion.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch It is finished...
Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross FINISHED, fulfilled the Old Covenant and brought it into the New.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch The Eucharist is literally the Flesh and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ...not symbolic or parable.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch People argue and argue over this point, only the Holy Spirit sorts it.
And I personally believe the Catholic Mother Teresa had it right.
But whether you have it right I’d have to be there in a Holy Spirit gathering with you.
Catholicism is dreadful in the way it allows syncretism, it allows and encourages the worship of Mary, the veneration of bones and carrying them round villages morbidly and calling that Corpus Christi,
And while some may recognise the Eucharist is a done deal, loads and loads still believe they are offering up Jesus Body crucifying Him afresh, but Catholics don’t bring definition to anything, preferring the numbers game and the tithe, to correcting and maturing Saints. Everybody is aware of this but Catholics.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Think of all the things the Catholic Church has wrecked
Singing in the Spirit crystallised now into plainsong
Community Living now crystallised into single sex communities complete with daft costumes and no particular vision of what it is all for. Many are just on vague personal pilgrimages which never see the light of day and because the communities are do formalised they cannot proliferate or extend the kingdom which was the whole point of community Living as acceleration.
Calling Jesus in John 4 a liar when He said it’s not about geographical places now it’s about worship in Spirit and truth, and what do Catholics do? Spit on Jesus and build the most lavish geographically rooted buildings on the planet.
So like Judaism and Islam we have to travel over land and sea and go up the Vatican or our national equivalent.
If Jesus says
Repent be baptised and be filled with the Spirit,
What do Catholics do?
Twist Jewish dedication of babies into an insane baptism of people to young to choose, then practically twist 8 year olds arms to do catechism and try and put right what they have already done wrong.
They rip personal experience out of people’s lives.
No one gets born again or baptised properly nor baptised in the Spirit.
Historically if anybody anywhere points out the original scriptures and commands of Jesus, Catholics murder them, like the 70 English bishops burned to death in Anglesey.
Catholics tar all Protestants with daft names like non Conformists and forbid them to build chapels anywhere near the main roads of towns.
Catholics who don’t conform to Jesus commands label all those who do non Conformist.
They disallow Bibles and this present pope says personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous.
Yes, all others might just find out what Popes really get up to.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Wow...you can ramble on with the crazy nonsense...hate has driven you mad.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Geographic Kingdom...the Church
The Christological Dimension
Here we see that “the Kingdom is not a thing, it is not a geographical dominion like worldly kingdoms. It is a person; it is he. On this interpretation, the term ‘Kingdom of God’ is itself a veiled Christology. By the way in which he speaks of the Kingdom of God, Jesus leads men to realize the overwhelming fact that in him God himself is present among them, that he is God’s presence.” (Pope Benedict, Jesus of Nazareth, Part 1)
The Idealistic/Mystical Dimension
Here we see that The Kingdom of God resides in the heart of man. Church Father, Origen wrote, “those who pray for the coming of the Kingdom of God pray without any doubt for the Kingdom of God that they contain in themselves, and they pray that this kingdom might bear fruit and attain its fullness.”
The Ecclesiastical Dimension
Here we see that the kingdom of God is in the here and now, present in and through the Church. Yet it is a mixed reality that will only be perfectly realized at the end of history. This current “mixed” state can be seen as the Church on earth which now grows in the field of the world with both weeds and wheat until the harvest when Christ says he will “tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned. But gather the wheat into my barn” (Matt 13:30).
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Humanly we think aaaah Israel was a failure
Or Church has been a failure
But Presence has always had its counterpart of judgment
The judgments have begun with the house of the Lord
In Gods building site the Light set upon a hill.. the brief instances of absolute glory, are set inside the negative reactions of mans flesh to God moving.
Judaism was the story of God excavating the first place in Gods 🏠
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Church history is the story of the other two “ covered” places being excavated.
We don’t think of supernatural seed itself as having to die and fall into the ground, but it surely has. The initial Church itself which contained so much Jewish paraphernalia had to die. But even the Gentile Church had to die, and in Catholicism it did, reaching the point of virtual no return as apostate by the time of Luther.
By revelation alone, the Heavenly Tabernacle has been rebuilt by slow painful steps, with Catholics killing and opposing each step.
First the the establishing that justification is by faith.
A proper heavenly version of the brazen altar reinstalled.
The washing of water in the Word together with the Lavers meaning of baptism was restored.
Catholics had hidden the Bible for centuries such is their wickedness.
Elements of true church structure the emerged with Presbyterian churches, Quakers and the Brethren.
By 1900 the work of God really accelerated with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit taking Gods Church more fully into the covered areas of the Tabernacle.
Catholicism opposed everything God has ever done in the form of Revival Moves and new Light, which is really old Light revisited by the Holy Spirit.
Fighting God tooth and claw, psalm 2, God just laughs and sure enough the same Pentecostal experiences start happening in Ann Arbor Michigan in the Catholic Community raised up there, and in Paderborn West Germany where I was. In 1975 thousands of newly baptised in the Spirit Catholics all meet in Rome and I have noted on my blog many of the prophecies given, which are incredibly accurate.
But ofcourse people were baptised in the Spirit on all the denominations.
The same Catholic spirit which has fought so hard to destroy Gods work has been in all the other of mans denominations, so similar to the story of Esau and Jacob, God takes the younger brother always because the elder brother sells his inheritance for some pottage or other.....
Usually tithe income and structure....
And in 1975 the Word went forth to build new churches and these are now in every town.
But they too are only secondlevel.
They accept the doctrine of rebirth and proper entry into Gods Tabernacle
They accept the baptism in the Spirit which takes them into the first covered area
But like all churches before them, and Catholics and Jews too,
nobody wants to eat Christ as He said in JOHN 6.
If we do we start to become the thirdlevel church that the apostles were, and the purity and power with which they were ministering in Acts.
And this God has promised before this age finishes....
And if like Jacob and Esau he has to discard
Israel and throw things to Gentiles....
And if the Gentile church don’t wish to hear
Then God has stated He will ignore all the sins of the Kingdom and go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come in.
Eight or more years ago in Iceland one of the Icelandic Street pimps and vice people kept waking up in the night with dreams of horrific judgment.
He called out to the Lord and the Lord saved him.
With no religious background he began a church among the people of the street in Reykjavik.
People of the last big Move of God, John and Carol Arnott were used to establish them in the faith.
Again, the Pope was nowhere to be seen. Neither were any denominations.
Jesus said of the instincts in the Spirit
Where the dead body is the carrion or eagles gather
Those who follow the Spirit are in the right place at the right time.
Catholics vote with their feet. Over 1700 years they have never been involved with any of the Moves of God. And in the coming times it looks like none of the church will be involved as God picks and chooses people from the highways and byways. Incidentally, just as the 12 apostles were .
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Chris Welch Wow...you can ramble on with the crazy nonsense...hate has driven you mad.
John Reynolds
Subtext
He’s right, I can’t fight all those historic examples of failure , better ignore them and move on as the Jesuits teach us to.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch John Reynolds ‘
Example of crazy nonsense
Murdering 70 of the original bishops by burning them alive in Bangor Wales
With sensitivity like this you can see why Catholicism isn’t getting anywhere. Instead of repenting the denomination continually houses Satanic rites right up to the present day, and missing children are presented in blood sacrifice. What begins in blood as blood lust must end in blood if there is no repentance.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "With sensitivity like this you can see why Catholicism isn’t getting anywhere"
Critics keep announcing the Church's imminent demise. If only they realised that numbers have doubled since 1970 – and are still rising
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/.../catholicisms.../
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Catholicism’s incredible growth story | CatholicHerald.co.uk
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "Instead of repenting the denomination"
Jesus Christ established a Church, not denominations.
Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Over the later parts of his reign, John Paul II made a series of apologies to various peoples that had been wronged by the Catholic Church through the years. Even before he became the Pope, he was a prominent supporter of initiatives like the Letter of Reconciliation of the Polish Bishops to the German Bishops from 1965. During his reign as a Pope, he publicly made apologies for over 100 of these wrongdoings, including:
For the execution of Jan Hus in 1415 (18 December 1999 in Prague). When John Paul II visited Prague in 1990s, he requested experts in this matter "to define with greater clarity the position held by Jan Hus among the Church's reformers, and acknowledged that "independently of the theological convictions he defended, Hus cannot be denied integrity in his personal life and commitment to the nation's moral education." It was another step in building a bridge between Catholics and Protestants.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch May I point out that the Protestants had a counter-inquisition that killed Catholics.
Thousands of Catholics were killed in England alone after the Reformation struck there. The same thing was true in Ireland and other areas where the Reformation came. John Calvin, for instance, was known for burning people at the stake.
In addition, Protestants were the big witch-burners. Witch burning never caught on in Catholic countries. When the Spanish Inquisition examined the cases of reported witches, it almost invariably concluded that the charges were false and the accused were not guilty. But tens of thousands of supposed witches were burned at the stake, hanged, or drowned in Protestant countries, including the American colonies
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John Reynolds started to make some comments based upon the teaching of the Catholic Church.
This post is only put up for people to start to see the very real differences between someone like myself approaching Christianity from scratch at 13, and being baptised in the Spirit in 1972 that year, and having to reassess all I ever knew fed me through Methodism. What does the Bible actually teach? I began with Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee and also The Holy Spirit and You by Dennis and Rita Bennet.
Both the Outset Club for teenagers in Chesham Bois , Amersham , Bucks near London UK, and somebody from the Open Brethren who worked as a Director for Chubb Locks and invited some of us to his house in Old Amersham, both these folk at the same time were doing studies on Romans.
And reading the gospels, the letters and especially Romans is a great way to start understanding Christian teaching for the Individual.
At times I am riveted by the details of the teachings John writes. Some are Catholic ideas. Some are straight Biblical quotes and some are history as penned by Catholics. I have no reason to believe that all the Catholic deaths are historical and this indeed is a terrible terrible shame on all the church, although I have long come to learn that the devil is really at war with the Name of God, so any way of bringing it into disrepute by scandal and killing, he will use and direct mankind into.
Once or twice I got so mad with john's position I was incredulous, and wanted just to end the futile conversation. Whether a Jesuit organisation is being paid by Google to keep various Christian groups entertained on the net with crazy teachings I have no idea. It even crossed my mind that John Reynolds is a Facebook profile invented purely for training Jesuits or new ministers how to argue their faith.
Chris Welch The Bible relates Jesus breathed on the disciples and they received the spirit. Some days later after the Ascension the disciples were filled with the spirit.From experience it seems now we can have both at once and this was the original plan of Jesus because he used the phrase Repent and be baptised and be filled with the holy spirit
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds You stated: "The Bible relates Jesus breathed on the disciples and they received the spirit"
Breathed on them to be able to do what?
John 20:21-23 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch What is written in the other gospels?
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Answer my question first...breathed on them to do what?
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch And Mrs Smith handed them a cup of tea and said I hope you do very well in the exams tomorrow. Do you think that drinking tea helps with exams? May or it may not the clause could be joined or it might not
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Here's the answer:
Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.
John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.
John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.
Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?
Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth.
Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.
Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.
John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ's ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an "indulgence").
2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.
2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.
James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.
1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.
Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch You probably don’t see that everything you write has an agenda that isn’t the Spirit of God.
So you meander around verse picking to prove your point but I can assure you it really is squeezing ugly sisters feet into Cinderella’s shoe.
It’s brilliant to not have an agenda, to be stripped of them so you can read unhindered.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Just your personal opinion...Truths you disagree with and dislike are not of the Holy Spirit or of God or Biblical.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch I agree with the loosing and the binding and the forgiving and the withholding , but you place loads of Catholic things on the top that just aren’t there.
The end goal of the gospel is to produce as many Father level people as possible.
The end goal of Catholicism is to produce a few Queen Bees who rule over hives.
It’s quite a different gospel you preach.
The idolisation of heirarchy for no particular gain.
And don’t tell me I am wrong because I am right. Both Jesus and Moses rebuked your spirit.
Once when people were prophesying and some complained to Moses and Moses said would that everyone were prophets.
And Jesus more or less said the same thing when disciples were complaining “ they are not with us”referring to some who were casting out demons.
Catholics are filled with this demon spirit that comes straight from the world system.
The diligent shall rule.
If I have been diligent in the Spirit then I shall be used in rule situations.
If all you have done is study men’s doctrines but not obeyed what Christ is saying to you in your family , work and church, then you will find you don’t have authority because you haven’t actually been diligent.
“ My own vineyard I have not kept” etc
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "The idolisation of heirarchy for no particular gain."
Just your opinion...
“The Church” is Hierarchical
Matt. 16:18; 18:18- Jesus uses the word "ecclesia" only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.
Acts 20:17,28- Paul refers to both the elders or priests ("presbyteroi") and the bishops ("episkopoi") of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.
1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.
Eph. 4:11- the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.
Phil. 1:1- Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.
1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7- Christ's Church has bishops ("episkopoi") who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.
1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14- Christ's Church also has elders or priests ("presbyteroi") who serve the bishops.
1 Tim. 3:8- Christ's Church also has deacons ("diakonoi"). Thus, Jesus Christ's Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.
Exodus 28:1 and 19:6– shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood:
(1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1)
(2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1)
(3) Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6).
The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:
(1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1)
(2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7)
(3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6)
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "And Jesus more or less said the same thing when disciples were complaining “ they are not with us”referring to some who were casting out demons."
Note that the passage in question is 9,38-41, and that the apostles had been given the authority to cast out demons, and only they, back in 6,7. This, however, does not demean the authority of Jesus and His ability to delegate this authority the way in which he wants. We have to understand that Jesus was able then, just as He is able now, to discern when someone was doing something in His name. He had the freedom to permit the action to be carried out in His name or to let it be carried out without the benefit of the action having the power of His name behind it. Jesus Himself grants the power behind His name. No one can just use His power
without His permission, as if using His name was some sort of magical formula enabling one to tap into the power of Jesus without Him knowing anything about it.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "Catholics are filled with this demon spirit that comes straight from the world system"
More mere opinion.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Authority...?
Apostolic Succession, Ordination and Authority...the Laying on, or Imposition of Hands.
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION
The method by which the episcopacy has been derived from the Apostles to the present day. Succession means successive consecration by the LAYING ON OF HANDS, performing the functions of the Apostles, receiving their commission in a lineal sequence from the Apostles, succession in episcopal sees traced back to the Apostles, and successive communion with the apostolic See, i.e., the Bishop of Rome.
AUTHORITY IS TRANSFERRED BY THE SACRAMENT OF ORDINATION
Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.
Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."
Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the LAYING ON OF HANDS (ordination). This AUTHORITY has transferred BEYOND THE ORIGINAL TWELVE APOSTLES as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the LAYING ON OF HANDS BY A BISHOP. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the LAYING ON OF HANDS (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "OFFICE." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the LAYING ON OF HANDS (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in LAYING ON THE HANDS (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.
1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."
Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "LAYING ON OF HANDS," one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 - Moses LAID HANDS upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.
Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch That’s pure Catholic nonsense. Proverbs is the genuine.
The diligent shall rule.
It’s not opinion when you are sporting that demon hat.
Ofcourse “ only they”
They were the only ones at that point , they were the only ones doing the course.
It’s not a big deal to move in the Name of Jesus
But we do have to train our senses in righteousness
Catholics talk such nonsense about special restrictions here special restrictions there all based on one person called JUSTIN who wasn’t an apostle and was probably facing a time of deep crisis in churches that were not very established.
You are as bad as the people that started worshipping Gideons ephod and the brass snake raised in the wilderness.
It’s alright. Peter is alive in heaven so is JUSTIN but they are irrelevant because the agent who is here on Earth is God Himself, the Holy Spirit.
He can manage things. I know you think it difficult you Catholics but the Holy Spirit has been around since the Beginning. He isn’t the part of the Godhead with L plates.
He was sent to lead into all truth. If that’s not the same as the Popes truth, or Jesuit truth or the truth of the Black Pope
Guess what gets modified.
Correct. Catholic teaching.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch When Jesus corrected the twelve each time they manifested wrong spirits as do the Catholics in most that they do, it’s a good job they didn’t turn to him with their lips upturned saying “ Mere opinion”.
And after three and a half years they were ready to lead this new entity called church.
They no longer called fire down from heaven on villages
They allowed little children to come near.
They no longer disputed who was the greatest among them . It was irrelevant, they got on with serving God.
They no longer argued and fussed and fighted saying “ your opinion” because they knew Him who was from the beginning.
In a way, after the dreadful weekend of the Cross they had all come to learn they knew nothing save what Christ was doing in them at that moment. And it was the simplicity of this Word this life that they had handled touched and tasted that they passed on that others could have fellowship with them and this Life.
The dreadful mess that Catholics make of these verses.
Priests don’t live and function together in any kind of attractive way that is a Light to the world. They have been duped to accept formalism instead of the real Life of Christ, and so ofcourse nothing really works. Priests don’t love each other, they are just local minions in a religious system of works and liturgies.
The Life of Christ actually works and baptism in the Spirit and living in the Spirit is a real thing.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "And after three and a half years they were ready to lead this new entity called church"
Agreed!!!
FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of His Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic.
The Church Is One (John 17:1-26, Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25-27, Rev. 19:7-8)
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19-20, Rev. 5:9-10)
The Church Is Apostolic (Succession) (Eph. 2:19-20)
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Any idiot church can say they are one and maintain a few pillars
Islam
Mormonism
Anglicanism
Scientology
Not even evangelicals who maintain more fundamental beliefs than Catholics are one.
Just saying a church is Holy doesn’t mean anything if your Pope was about to be arrested by Interpol June 21st after a Solstice tip-off of what he was going to do to a youngster.
We were there a week later. There has been a media blackout so nobody knows anything.
The Interpol agents were badly beaten and hospitalised.
When we were there the day a new cardinal was being sworn in there was quite a police presence. We ofcourse have no idea what is it isn’t normal police presence.
It’s quite easy to form these type of pillars of belief or stance and then say you adhere to them.
This IS THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
Step by step thinking
A people and their law book or manual.
Israel in the Old Testament were never quite as simple as two tablets of Laws and that’s that
Or even all the laws of Deuteronomy....
No, as a church or ekklesia in the wilderness they had to follow a pillar of fire by night and cloud by day.
Jesus stated the new foundation. Those who follow the Spirit they are the sons of God.
And as He said
Just like the wind you cannot second guess the Spirit.
So as in the Old Testament everything was Spirit and Word right through the Tabernacle, culminating with Shekinah
So it is now in the Church built upon apostles and prophets then and now, and following hard after the Spirit.
Legitimacy through long lines of formal pronouncement and the blessing of one figurehead is nuts.
Why? Jesus makes it plain ..... if a pope is not following the Spirit, no amount of ritual of blessing is going to work .
The Holy Spirit has always looked after things.
Yes, Samuel anointed both Saul and DAvid , but the common denominator wasn’t the “ line “ through Saul it was the faithful servant Samuel.
The Pope wasn’t even asked by God to get involved with Smith Wigglesworth and the person the Spirit used him to raise up, DAvid DuPlessis.
The Pope was never asked by God to have anything to do with George Jeffries and Reinhard Bonke.
The Holy Spirit said a young man is going to come to your house I want you to bless this last man.
Rheinhard Just happened to be doing a sightseeing trip of London before returning from his course at Rees Howells Bible College. He spied the plaque on the wall of George Jeffries house. He knocked in the door to learn more.
George found strength to come and speak to Rheinhard and then he prayed and blessed Bonnie with all his remaining strength.
By the time Bonnke was back in Germany he heard on the radio that the famous evangelist was dead.
Bonnke went on to win millions across Africa in several decades and see innumerable people baptised in the Spirit as they came to the Lord.
The Pope was nothing to do with any of that, but the Holy Spirit had actually in this case also organised a “ succession” but by no human organisation whatsoever. Rheinhard didn’t even know if the man on the plaque in the house was still alive.
This is the church.
And the Catholic Church isn’t actually Catholic at all because it doesn’t recognise any of these ministries,
never is involved with revival,
And doesn’t know how to lead people into being born again anyway.
It is a huge deception right across the earth, taking the Name of Jesus but having no power, apart from the human power of local police to bludgeon and beat innocent Interpol agents just carrying out their duty.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Sorry...just more hate filled opinion.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds John Reynolds Shouldn't the One True Church...the very same Church our Lord and Savior established in Jerusalem in A.D. 33 be the same age as Christianity?
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch The Church Jesus Christ Himself established in Jerusalem in A.D. 33 is the almost 2,000 year old One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The Catholic Church of the first century is that same as the Catholic Church of today.
As mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, it is true that the followers of Christ early became known as "Christians" (cf. Acts 11:26). The name Christian, however, was never commonly applied to the Church herself. In the New Testament itself, the Church is simply called "the Church." There was only one. In that early time there were not yet any break-away bodies substantial enough to be rival claimants of the name and from which the Church might ever have to distinguish herself. “The Way” was also an early reference to the One Church in the Book of Acts (Acts 18:26; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22). However, the Essene community at Qumran used the same designation to describe its mode of life. Very early in post-apostolic times, however, the Church did acquire a proper name--and precisely in order to distinguish herself from rival bodies (like the Essene community at Qumran) which by then were already beginning to form. The name that the Church acquired when it became necessary for her to have a proper name was the name by which she has been known ever since-the Catholic Church.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Since the second half of the first century (50-100 A.D.) the Church Jesus Christ founded has been called the “Catholic Church”.
Ignatius converted to Christianity at a young age. Tradition identifies Ignatius, along with his friend Polycarp, as disciples of John the Apostle. Later in his life Ignatius was chosen to serve as a Bishop of Antioch.
Jesus Christ taught divinely revealed Truth to the Apostle John who handed it on to St. Ignatius…who wrote this:
"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 107 - 110).
We see from this short text that by the end of the first century the following has already been well established, there are Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and especially the term “Eucharist” and the formal name of the Church.
Ignatius uses this formal name of the Church our Lord Jesus Christ established (A.D. 33) as if it is already widely known.
Sure sounds like the Catholic Church of today….don’t you think?
When was the word "Catholic" first used?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shczHGr290g
02 min, 08 sec
By Jimmy Akin, former Protestant
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YOUTUBE.COM
When was the word "Catholic" first used?
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Pope Francis impending arrest...proof please?
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Succession
Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination
Acts 1:15-26 – the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.
Acts 1:20 – a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”
Acts 1:22 – literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.
Acts 6:6 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 – even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
Acts 14:23 – the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 – preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 – Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 – Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 – Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 – again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 – Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 – Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 – at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 – this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 – the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.
1 John 4:6 – whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Exodus 18:25-26 – Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 – the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 – the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”
Numbers 16:40 – shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 – shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 – Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.
Sirach 45:15 – Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Ritual
At the Last Supper, Jesus Christ, GOD, gave us a Grace filled RITUAL...
Jesus Institutes the Eucharist / More Proofs of the Real Presence
Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 – Jesus says, this IS my body and blood. Jesus does not say, this is a symbol of my body and blood.
Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19-20 – the Greek phrase is “Touto estin to soma mou.” This phraseology means “this is actually” or “this is really” my body and blood.
1 Cor. 11:24 – the same translation is used by Paul – “touto mou estin to soma.” The statement is “this is really” my body and blood. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever declare something without making it so.
Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19 – to deny the 2,000 year-old Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, Protestants must argue that Jesus was really saying “this represents (not is) my body and blood.” However, Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke, had over 30 words for “represent,” but Jesus did not use any of them. He used the Aramaic word for “estin” which means “is.”
Matt. 26:28; Mark. 14:24; Luke 22:20 – Jesus’ use of “poured out” in reference to His blood also emphasizes the reality of its presence.
Exodus 24:8 – Jesus emphasizes the reality of His actual blood being present by using Moses’ statement “blood of the covenant.”
1 Cor. 10:16 – Paul asks the question, “the cup of blessing and the bread of which we partake, is it not an actual participation in Christ’s body and blood?” Is Paul really asking because He, the divinely inspired writer, does not understand? No, of course not. Paul’s questions are obviously rhetorical. This IS the actual body and blood. Further, the Greek word “koinonia” describes an actual, not symbolic participation in the body and blood.
1 Cor. 10:18 – in this verse, Paul is saying we are what we eat. We are not partners with a symbol. We are partners of the one actual body.
1 Cor. 11:23 – Paul does not explain what he has actually received directly from Christ, except in the case when he teaches about the Eucharist. Here, Paul emphasizes the importance of the Eucharist by telling us he received directly from Jesus instructions on the Eucharist which is the source and summit of the Christian faith.
1 Cor. 11:27-29 – in these verses, Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of the Lord. If this is just a symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ.
1 Cor. 11:30 – this verse alludes to the consequences of receiving the Eucharist unworthily. Receiving the actual body and blood of Jesus in mortal sin results in actual physical consequences to our bodies.
1 Cor. 11:27-30 – thus, if we partake of the Eucharist unworthily, we are guilty of literally murdering the body of Christ, and risking physical consequences to our bodies. This is overwhelming evidence for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. These are unjust penalties if the Eucharist is just a symbol.
Acts 2:42 – from the Church’s inception, apostolic tradition included celebrating the Eucharist (the “breaking of the bread”) to fulfill Jesus’ command “do this in remembrance of me.”
Acts 20:28 – Paul charges the Church elders to “feed” the Church of the Lord, that is, with the flesh and blood of Christ.
Matt. 6:11; Luke 11:3 – in the Our Father, we ask God to give us this day our daily bread, that is the bread of life, Jesus Christ.
Matt. 12:39 – Jesus says no “sign” will be given except the “sign of the prophet Jonah.” While Protestants focus only on the “sign” of the Eucharist, this verse demonstrates that a sign can be followed by the reality (here, Jesus’ resurrection, which is intimately connected to the Eucharist).
Matt. 19:6 – Jesus says a husband and wife become one flesh which is consummated in the life giving union of the marital act. This union of marital love which reflects Christ’s union with the Church is physical, not just spiritual. Thus, when Paul says we are a part of Christ’s body (Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23,30-31; Col. 1:18,24), he means that our union with Christ is physical, not just spiritual. But our union with Christ can only be physical if He is actually giving us something physical, that is Himself, which is His body and blood to consume (otherwise it is a mere spiritual union).
Luke 14:15 – blessed is he who eats this bread in the kingdom of God, on earth and in heaven.
Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24-25 – Jesus commands the apostles to “do this,” that is, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice, in remembrance of Him.
Luke 24:26-35 – in the Emmaus road story, Jesus gives a homily on the Scriptures and then follows it with the celebration of the Eucharist. This is the Holy Mass, and the Church has followed this order of the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist for 2,000 years.
Luke 24:30-31,35 – Jesus is known only in the breaking of bread. Luke is emphasizing that we only receive the fullness of Jesus by celebrating the Eucharistic feast of His body and blood, which is only offered in its fullness by the Catholic Church.
John 1:14 – literally, this verse teaches that the Word was made flesh and “pitched His tabernacle” among us. The Eucharist, which is the Incarnate Word of God under the appearance of bread, is stored in the tabernacles of Catholic churches around the world.
John 21:15,17 – Jesus charges Peter to “feed” His sheep, that is, with the Word of God through preaching and the Eucharist.
Acts 9:4-5; 22:8; 26:14-15 – Jesus asks Saul, “Why are you persecuting me?” when Saul was persecuting the Church. Jesus and the Church are one body (Bridegroom and Bride), and we are one with Jesus through His flesh and blood (the Eucharist).
1 Cor. 12:13 – we “drink” of one Spirit in the Eucharist by consuming the blood of Christ eternally offered to the Father.
Heb. 10:25,29 – these verses allude to the reality that failing to meet together to celebrate the Eucharist is mortal sin. It is profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
Heb. 12:22-23 – the Eucharistic liturgy brings about full union with angels in festal gathering, the just spirits, and God Himself, which takes place in the assembly or “ecclesia” (the Church).
Heb. 12:24 – we couldn’t come to Jesus’ sprinkled blood if it were no longer offered by Jesus to the Father and made present for us.
2 Pet. 1:4 – we partake of His divine nature, most notably through the Eucharist – a sacred family bond where we become one.
Rev. 2:7; 22:14 – we are invited to eat of the tree of life, which is the resurrected flesh of Jesus which, before, hung on the tree.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Are there sinners in the One True Church...YES!
Controversies and Scandals in the Church
Matt. 13:24-30 – scandals have always existed in the Church, just as they have existed outside of the Church. This should not cause us to lose hope in the Church. God’s mysterious plan requires the wheat and the weeds to be side by side in the Church until the end of time.
Matt. 13:47-50 – God’s plan is that the Church (the kingdom of heaven) is a net which catches fish of every kind, good and bad. God revealed this to us so that we will not get discouraged by the sinfulness of the Church’s members.
Matt. 16:18 – no matter how sinful its members conduct themselves, Jesus promised that the gates of death will never prevail against the Church.
Matt. 23:2-3 – the Jewish people would have always understood the difference between a person’s sinfulness and his teaching authority. We see that the sinfulness of the Pharisees does not minimize their teaching authority. They occupy the “cathedra” of Moses.
Matt. 26:70-72; Mark 14:68-70; Luke 22:57; John 18:25-27 – Peter denied Christ three times, yet he was chosen to be the leader of the Church, and taught and wrote infallibly.
Mark 14:45 – Judas was unfaithful by betraying Jesus. But his apostolic office was preserved and this did not weaken the Church.
Mark 14:50 – all of Jesus’ apostles were unfaithful by abandoning Him in the garden of Gethsemane, yet they are the foundation of the Church.
John 20:24-25 – Thomas the apostle was unfaithful by refusing to believe in Jesus’ resurrection, yet he taught infallibly in India.
Rom. 3:3-4 – unfaithful members do not nullify the faithfulness of God and the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Eph. 5:25-27 – just as Jesus Christ has both a human and a divine nature, the Church, His Bride, is also both human and divine. It is the holy and spotless bride of Christ, with sinful human members.
1 Tim. 5:19 – Paul acknowledges Church elders might be unfaithful. The Church, not rebellion and schism, deals with these matters.
2 Tim. 2:13 – if we remain faithless, God remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself.
2 Tim. 2:20 – a great house has not only gold and silver, but also wood and earthenware, some for noble use, some for ignoble use.
Jer. 24:1-10 – God’s plan includes both good and bad figs. The good figs will be rewarded, and the bad figs will be discarded.
1 Kings 6,7,8 – the Lord commands us to build elaborate places of worship. Some non-Catholics think that this is controversial and the money should be given to the poor, even though no organization does more for the poor of the world that the Catholic Church. We create our churches with beauty because Christ our King lives in the churches in the blessed Eucharist.
Matt. 26:8-9; Mark 14:4-5; John 12:5 – negative comments concerning the beauty of the Church are like the disciples complaining about the woman anointing Jesus’ head with costly oil. Jesus desires that we honor Him with our best gifts, not for Him, but for us, so that we realize He is God and we are His creatures.
Matt. 26:10-11 – Jesus says we have both a duty to honor God and give to the poor – a balanced life of reverence and charity.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch John Reynolds, the issue isn’t the traditional Protestant / Catholic divide thing of
Is it a symbol or is it actually Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit brought correction by identifying that when saints are gathered in Jesus Name there He is in our midst.
Not a symbol of Him.
Not a psychological idea of Him. But the actual Person of Jesus
If we eat and drink in remembrance of Him it is to us His Body and Blood.
Ignatius is wrong that a priest has to be present.
He was probably protecting against levity, but where the Holy Spirit is honoured there is no need for half the Catholic paraphernalia , or else Jesus would have said so.
God is Spirit. There is no benefit in believing for the actual physical body and blood of Jesus while on earth.
Demons get off on it, and like the idea of always causing harm to Jesus like they did the first time.
So no, we are not ever offering the same sacrifice . It is finished means it is finished.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch https://youtu.be/dB3bIfYIGcY
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YOUTUBE.COM
POPE ARRESTED! - WORLDWIDE MEDIA…
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Just more nonsensical, crazy opinion.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch It is finished...
Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross FINISHED, fulfilled the Old Covenant and brought it into the New.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch The Eucharist is literally the Flesh and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ...not symbolic or parable.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch People argue and argue over this point, only the Holy Spirit sorts it.
And I personally believe the Catholic Mother Teresa had it right.
But whether you have it right I’d have to be there in a Holy Spirit gathering with you.
Catholicism is dreadful in the way it allows syncretism, it allows and encourages the worship of Mary, the veneration of bones and carrying them round villages morbidly and calling that Corpus Christi,
And while some may recognise the Eucharist is a done deal, loads and loads still believe they are offering up Jesus Body crucifying Him afresh, but Catholics don’t bring definition to anything, preferring the numbers game and the tithe, to correcting and maturing Saints. Everybody is aware of this but Catholics.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Think of all the things the Catholic Church has wrecked
Singing in the Spirit crystallised now into plainsong
Community Living now crystallised into single sex communities complete with daft costumes and no particular vision of what it is all for. Many are just on vague personal pilgrimages which never see the light of day and because the communities are do formalised they cannot proliferate or extend the kingdom which was the whole point of community Living as acceleration.
Calling Jesus in John 4 a liar when He said it’s not about geographical places now it’s about worship in Spirit and truth, and what do Catholics do? Spit on Jesus and build the most lavish geographically rooted buildings on the planet.
So like Judaism and Islam we have to travel over land and sea and go up the Vatican or our national equivalent.
If Jesus says
Repent be baptised and be filled with the Spirit,
What do Catholics do?
Twist Jewish dedication of babies into an insane baptism of people to young to choose, then practically twist 8 year olds arms to do catechism and try and put right what they have already done wrong.
They rip personal experience out of people’s lives.
No one gets born again or baptised properly nor baptised in the Spirit.
Historically if anybody anywhere points out the original scriptures and commands of Jesus, Catholics murder them, like the 70 English bishops burned to death in Anglesey.
Catholics tar all Protestants with daft names like non Conformists and forbid them to build chapels anywhere near the main roads of towns.
Catholics who don’t conform to Jesus commands label all those who do non Conformist.
They disallow Bibles and this present pope says personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous.
Yes, all others might just find out what Popes really get up to.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Wow...you can ramble on with the crazy nonsense...hate has driven you mad.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Geographic Kingdom...the Church
The Christological Dimension
Here we see that “the Kingdom is not a thing, it is not a geographical dominion like worldly kingdoms. It is a person; it is he. On this interpretation, the term ‘Kingdom of God’ is itself a veiled Christology. By the way in which he speaks of the Kingdom of God, Jesus leads men to realize the overwhelming fact that in him God himself is present among them, that he is God’s presence.” (Pope Benedict, Jesus of Nazareth, Part 1)
The Idealistic/Mystical Dimension
Here we see that The Kingdom of God resides in the heart of man. Church Father, Origen wrote, “those who pray for the coming of the Kingdom of God pray without any doubt for the Kingdom of God that they contain in themselves, and they pray that this kingdom might bear fruit and attain its fullness.”
The Ecclesiastical Dimension
Here we see that the kingdom of God is in the here and now, present in and through the Church. Yet it is a mixed reality that will only be perfectly realized at the end of history. This current “mixed” state can be seen as the Church on earth which now grows in the field of the world with both weeds and wheat until the harvest when Christ says he will “tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned. But gather the wheat into my barn” (Matt 13:30).
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Humanly we think aaaah Israel was a failure
Or Church has been a failure
But Presence has always had its counterpart of judgment
The judgments have begun with the house of the Lord
In Gods building site the Light set upon a hill.. the brief instances of absolute glory, are set inside the negative reactions of mans flesh to God moving.
Judaism was the story of God excavating the first place in Gods 🏠
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Church history is the story of the other two “ covered” places being excavated.
We don’t think of supernatural seed itself as having to die and fall into the ground, but it surely has. The initial Church itself which contained so much Jewish paraphernalia had to die. But even the Gentile Church had to die, and in Catholicism it did, reaching the point of virtual no return as apostate by the time of Luther.
By revelation alone, the Heavenly Tabernacle has been rebuilt by slow painful steps, with Catholics killing and opposing each step.
First the the establishing that justification is by faith.
A proper heavenly version of the brazen altar reinstalled.
The washing of water in the Word together with the Lavers meaning of baptism was restored.
Catholics had hidden the Bible for centuries such is their wickedness.
Elements of true church structure the emerged with Presbyterian churches, Quakers and the Brethren.
By 1900 the work of God really accelerated with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit taking Gods Church more fully into the covered areas of the Tabernacle.
Catholicism opposed everything God has ever done in the form of Revival Moves and new Light, which is really old Light revisited by the Holy Spirit.
Fighting God tooth and claw, psalm 2, God just laughs and sure enough the same Pentecostal experiences start happening in Ann Arbor Michigan in the Catholic Community raised up there, and in Paderborn West Germany where I was. In 1975 thousands of newly baptised in the Spirit Catholics all meet in Rome and I have noted on my blog many of the prophecies given, which are incredibly accurate.
But ofcourse people were baptised in the Spirit on all the denominations.
The same Catholic spirit which has fought so hard to destroy Gods work has been in all the other of mans denominations, so similar to the story of Esau and Jacob, God takes the younger brother always because the elder brother sells his inheritance for some pottage or other.....
Usually tithe income and structure....
And in 1975 the Word went forth to build new churches and these are now in every town.
But they too are only secondlevel.
They accept the doctrine of rebirth and proper entry into Gods Tabernacle
They accept the baptism in the Spirit which takes them into the first covered area
But like all churches before them, and Catholics and Jews too,
nobody wants to eat Christ as He said in JOHN 6.
If we do we start to become the thirdlevel church that the apostles were, and the purity and power with which they were ministering in Acts.
And this God has promised before this age finishes....
And if like Jacob and Esau he has to discard
Israel and throw things to Gentiles....
And if the Gentile church don’t wish to hear
Then God has stated He will ignore all the sins of the Kingdom and go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come in.
Eight or more years ago in Iceland one of the Icelandic Street pimps and vice people kept waking up in the night with dreams of horrific judgment.
He called out to the Lord and the Lord saved him.
With no religious background he began a church among the people of the street in Reykjavik.
People of the last big Move of God, John and Carol Arnott were used to establish them in the faith.
Again, the Pope was nowhere to be seen. Neither were any denominations.
Jesus said of the instincts in the Spirit
Where the dead body is the carrion or eagles gather
Those who follow the Spirit are in the right place at the right time.
Catholics vote with their feet. Over 1700 years they have never been involved with any of the Moves of God. And in the coming times it looks like none of the church will be involved as God picks and chooses people from the highways and byways. Incidentally, just as the 12 apostles were .
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch Chris Welch Wow...you can ramble on with the crazy nonsense...hate has driven you mad.
John Reynolds
Subtext
He’s right, I can’t fight all those historic examples of failure , better ignore them and move on as the Jesuits teach us to.
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Chris Welch
Chris Welch John Reynolds ‘
Example of crazy nonsense
Murdering 70 of the original bishops by burning them alive in Bangor Wales
With sensitivity like this you can see why Catholicism isn’t getting anywhere. Instead of repenting the denomination continually houses Satanic rites right up to the present day, and missing children are presented in blood sacrifice. What begins in blood as blood lust must end in blood if there is no repentance.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "With sensitivity like this you can see why Catholicism isn’t getting anywhere"
Critics keep announcing the Church's imminent demise. If only they realised that numbers have doubled since 1970 – and are still rising
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/.../catholicisms.../
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CATHOLICHERALD.CO.UK
Catholicism’s incredible growth story | CatholicHerald.co.uk
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch You stated: "Instead of repenting the denomination"
Jesus Christ established a Church, not denominations.
Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch Over the later parts of his reign, John Paul II made a series of apologies to various peoples that had been wronged by the Catholic Church through the years. Even before he became the Pope, he was a prominent supporter of initiatives like the Letter of Reconciliation of the Polish Bishops to the German Bishops from 1965. During his reign as a Pope, he publicly made apologies for over 100 of these wrongdoings, including:
For the execution of Jan Hus in 1415 (18 December 1999 in Prague). When John Paul II visited Prague in 1990s, he requested experts in this matter "to define with greater clarity the position held by Jan Hus among the Church's reformers, and acknowledged that "independently of the theological convictions he defended, Hus cannot be denied integrity in his personal life and commitment to the nation's moral education." It was another step in building a bridge between Catholics and Protestants.
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John Reynolds
John Reynolds Chris Welch May I point out that the Protestants had a counter-inquisition that killed Catholics.
Thousands of Catholics were killed in England alone after the Reformation struck there. The same thing was true in Ireland and other areas where the Reformation came. John Calvin, for instance, was known for burning people at the stake.
In addition, Protestants were the big witch-burners. Witch burning never caught on in Catholic countries. When the Spanish Inquisition examined the cases of reported witches, it almost invariably concluded that the charges were false and the accused were not guilty. But tens of thousands of supposed witches were burned at the stake, hanged, or drowned in Protestant countries, including the American colonies
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