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On episode #3 of the Informational Interview 2.0 podcast, Kevin Anselmo and Heidi Scott Giusto discuss some key points to consider in writing effective resumes, as well as some pitfalls to avoid. Some of the key points shared:

• Avoid fluff in your resume.
• Ensure your grammar is correct.
• Communicate in a clear and concise way.
• Editing thoroughly by organizing, correcting and condensing.
• Integrate keywords for machines (Applicant Tracking Systems).
• Stay away from tables and other graphics that might not get picked up in Applicant Tracking Systems.

Related article:
– Avoid These 5 Common Resume Mistakes.

– What’s an ATS? Why You Should Know—And How It Affects Your Job Search

Episode #3 – Transcript

Kevin Anselmo
You’re listening to the informational interview 2.0 podcast. This is a podcast focused on how communications can spark innovation and career growth.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Welcome to the informational interview 2.0 podcasts. My name is Heidi Giusto.

Kevin Anselmo
And my name is Kevin Anselmo.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Today we are having our third episode. We’re going to go into what to avoid doing in resumes. And I always try to be very optimistic and I’m a very positive person and I try to keep things very upbeat. But …..

Kevin Anselmo
I know there was a but coming.

Heidi Scott Giusto
There are some things that I see over and over again, and I think we agreed here that it was timely to talk about what are some things that you know, mistakes you need to make sure you don’t make in your resume or your CV. Because those mistakes can really be costly.

Kevin Anselmo
Yeah, let me say one thing for me that drives me crazy and this actually is true for any type of marketing writing, because as we said in the previous episode, a resume is a strategic marketing document. But that’s kind of around just ineffective writing. You use this example, actually the other article that you had written about optimizing your resume and you gave the before and the after and the bullet points, and I’ll just read that, I’ll read one and then I’ll read two. So, the before “instituted training protocols that clarified work processes”, and then I’ll read the after “reduced employee errors by 34% and improved employee confidence by 62% based on survey feedback,” and there was no necessarily grammatical mistakes in the first one, but boy, the second one is so much more descriptive and appealing. And I would say the number one thing that I say in this type of editing that I do all the time with my clients is what are the examples? Where are the proof points? You know, don’t be vague and generic. And I think that’s a great example of that in what you wrote about there.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Yeah, the ineffective writing I think we can. There’s so many things that people can point out as wrong or bad or bad about resumes, you know, the mistakes and you don’t want to have any major mistakes. You don’t want any red flags, but the ineffective writing. I think it’s something that we see so much. So, some of the things that I’m sure you’ve seen as you’ve read a lot of resumes in your day. And I cringe when I see the ones that start with a long list of adjectives, results driven, team playing, goal oriented professional in the life sciences industry. How many words do we have to get before we got to a noun, and then the noun that I was just waiting to read was professional?

Kevin Anselmo
Some people just think, I don’t know what to say so, let me just throw a bunch of adjectives before the word. And in any sort of marketing content, and if you just see like a long list of adjectives, but you know, high ranking, leading, distinguished blah, blah, blah, it’s time to yawn as the reader. And for you as the writer, it’s time to go back to the drawing board and look, hey, we’ve all been there before. So but for me, the other thing I would say is when I do see grammatical mistakes, and maybe I’m a little bit more nitpicky on this as somebody who’s a communicator, and of course, I’ve been guilty of being the communicator who makes very blatant kind of spelling mistakes before so.

Heidi Scott Giusto
It happens to us.

Kevin Anselmo
But on a resume, you should, there’s really no excuse to have especially for me, at least again, if I’m hiring someone or you know, looking at something evaluating someone for a communications related role, for me, it often comes down to not doing a basic, thorough edit. And although if you I’m sure you’ve seen that we think we’ve said something, but we actually have not communicated that.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Yeah. And a couple points about that so soon with the idea of ineffective writing to your point when I think that example that you read that one of the things that stands out is when people can give numbers. When they quantify it’s just so much more specific. So, thinking about that and making sure it’s not just yeah, this fluffy list of you know, people call it fluff like Heather I don’t want fluff and I don’t want keyword vomit either. That’s what I call when Oh, there’s all these keywords business acumen. Yeah, okay, great, you know, but soon there’s the writing just isn’t clear, concise, compelling, and to your point the grammar. So, there are two words. Still two-word pairs that I see just time and again, and frankly, I’m not even sure if this really matters for most people because most people don’t know the difference. But the two-word pairs that I just cannot stand being wrong. Led and lead. Okay, so most people I see very highly educated people. And it’s lead the team l e a d and that should be L e d. So for the 95% of the people out there who don’t know the difference, you’re fine. But how about you? And you’re going to think, oh, communications professional and you don’t know how to spell.

Kevin Anselmo
Yeah, I would say, one of the words that I see spelled wrong in this case is the word manager because a lot of times it becomes a major right and major does not get picked up in spellcheck, and you can read it. And it’s one of those things where you can read really quickly, you’ve written the word you think you’ve written the word manager, but it actually says major, but, you know, for me, it just underscores the point of doing a really thorough edit. And for me, and it’s the same thing. And again, you’re the resume expert, I’m not, but I do, you know, do a lot of work in terms of copy written content. And for me, editing is about organizing, correcting and condensing and so I imagine that each of those you can comment on each of these points, but as far as like the resume, but for me, organizing your ideas is your most important bullet point listed six instead or first right, I mean, a different organization correcting is just basically correct word choice as well. Not only are we talking about obvious typos and things like that, but, you know, do you have verb number one in your first bullet point and then use that same exact verb in the fifth bullet point, for example, kind of inexplicable oversight, but you know, it is something You can overlook and you know, a thorough edit will hopefully help you to recognize that and then condensing. Less is more is always one of the things I talked about is you know, can you say something in in five words instead of six words, can you say something in one line instead of two lines.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Isn’t that Strunk and white? The Elements of Style? I think that’s where, at least that’s where I got it. Yeah, don’t say something in five words, if you can say it in three.

Kevin Anselmo
Okay. I just came up with those analogies.

Heidi Scott Giusto
No, that’s that. Really, I want to say it’s Strunk and white, which is still just a foundational text. That’s, I think, at this point over 100 years old. So, I reckon to your point of the doing a thorough edit. If you haven’t read a book about writing and editing. I do recommend that one Elements of Style. It’s very, very short and thin, easy to skim through and it’s going to give the reader Some of the things that you and I know we have to look for with you know not using the extra adjectives and adverbs and using strong verbs not using wrong verbs the other one that I hate and I see it all the time insure versus ensure so insure I N S U R E the only time you use that only only only is when you’re talking about insurance policies home auto flood renters got to make sure something happens. Yes, so those I see those a lot, one of the things another thing that I really see very frequently is inconsistency. So, if this goes to this, the editing good thorough edit, so so one of the other mistakes to avoid is inconsistency. And what I mean by that is Every single character space needs to be there for a reason.

 Kevin Anselmo
Yeah.

Heidi Scott Giusto
And you need to pay attention to it. And what that means is I don’t want to see dashes of different sizes. I don’t want a long dash and the little end the difference between the N dash and the M dash I don’t want those use sometimes within you know, days, I want to always the same your bullet points. They either need to have periods at the end or not. Right? I see so many things and resumes are arbitrary. We don’t have a strict set of rules for this is always how it has to be but a rule is you better be consistent.

Kevin Anselmo
Absolutely. I just reviewed a document today, not a resume, but you know, it was a strategic document and the word policymaker was spelled three different ways. Policy space maker, policy maker and policy maker one word, all three of those I believe are technically correct, however, I said, Look, let’s be consistent. Can we pick one? And that’s the case. And that’s I think, talking about, I guess for you kind of underscores the importance of making sure I would assume that you want somebody else to read your resume because a lot of times we don’t notice those little nuances. You use the long dash and then you use a short dash you’re using inconsistent.

Heidi Scott Giusto
January versus Jan period.

Kevin Anselmo
Yeah.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Or just Jan Yeah. Or one.

Kevin Anselmo
Yeah.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Just pick one pick a style. Yeah, so so absolutely. So with you your ideas, and I like this. I never thought about it this way, but organizing, editing, condensing and add proofing to that in my proofing process to help catch these inconsistency easy and effective writing print it out.

Kevin Anselmo
Absolutely.

Heidi Scott Giusto
There is something about physical in your hands.

Kevin Anselmo
Yes. I would add actually read it. I mean, you want somebody else to read it, I think but also and you know, I think you can Keep this in mind for you know, anything that you’re doing written wise, read it aloud. There’s just a difference. It’s amazing. I mean, you don’t need to, you know, scream from the rooftops, but you know, read it quietly aloud. And it is amazing how, you know, I will do that. And I will notice that, oh, wow, when I read this aloud, I realized that you know, this word was spelled wrong. I also sometimes before I print it out another thing that I personally do, it’s a little annoying with a resume because of how things appear formatting wise, but I will adjust the font sizes. So, you know, I might all of a sudden, I’m looking at an 11 font, for example, I might jump that up to like a 28 size font. And it just helped me to look at Yeah, it just helps me to see like, it helps me to look at things differently. It’s just kind of like an editing trick. I do for all sorts of things, I think and for resume writing, it’s a little trickier because the way things are formatted, but for me when I see when I’m used to looking I’ve been looking at my computer screen. I’ve been working on a document for hours just adjusting the font size always allows me to capture more things than I otherwise wouldn’t capture if I just kept it at 11.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Yeah, absolutely another trick that I have heard and have used, and it’s, it is troubling a little bit with the resume, consider this is not a proof for the format, but change the font. If there’s anything you can do to make it look less familiar, you’re going to catch things and when you read it out loud, also read it in the most boring voice. Yeah. These are very like it’s, it’s actually spending the time to look at every single word and read it intentionally. Because otherwise, you’re just going to read what you think is there. And that’s what leads me to another strategy. We can really have a good conversation, a long conversation on proofing it know if you can drag a friend or a spouse or a partner and have them Read over your shoulder as you read aloud, because they can help catch you help you catch some things as well.

Kevin Anselmo
One of the points that I thought was really interesting that you made in your article about the mistakes to avoid in your resume. And I think this might be a particular eye opener for individuals who suddenly find themselves needing to find work because of the disruptions that have happened around us. And that is the fact that when you are sending a resume, you might not necessarily have a human being reading the resume for the first time. And that might be a little bit different than you know, when maybe last apply for a job 15 years ago, right? It’s really fascinating to think about, you know, you actually need to write for AI you need to write for a robot on the same token to I just was working on an article last year for duke corporate education. And we were interviewing employer’s kind of got the recruiting processes to make sure that you know, they were incorporating DNI in the appropriate way. It was just interesting how, from the employer point of view, they were using robots to make sure that the job descriptions were appropriate for both genders. So we’re seeing how AI is working in the recruitment process on both sides from the employer point of view and from the job seeker point of view, but maybe talk a little bit about advice you would give to someone who is looking for a job and needs to suddenly know that they need to make sure that that robot understands their resume.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Yeah. So that’s where some of the mistakes are is that they’re the people aren’t even realizing that it’s not only people reading these so I don’t want to go into overwhelmed with a whole bunch of really detailed tips, but just knowing that there are things called applicant tracking systems ATS’s. And so we need to write knowing that these systems parse the resumes, and they quote on quote read based on whatever parameters have been set by the employer for scanning for keywords. So that’s why it is critically important for you to read the job description, print it out, use highlighters, I highlight and mark up job descriptions when I’m tailoring materials for clients. If you see the word project management six times in a one-page job description, you better believe that’s probably going to be a key word and I want to see it in a resume.

Kevin Anselmo
How often? how many how many times you think you need to see that word?

Heidi Scott Giusto
That’s a hard one to say, but for me, it’s very prevalent in a job description and you can toss the job description in a word cloud and that gives you a visualization of which words are coming up the most, then almost to the point of the more the merrier. So, in the summary, if there’s a skill section and then in each job description, if you’ve done project management, I will be putting it in there. Because that can that can really help. The other thing with tracking systems and we have to have this balance of, you know, okay that people take about six to 10 seconds to read your resume. So I need to make it really visually appealing, I really need to guide the eye, you do want to guide the eye, but you want to do that in relatively simple formatting tricks using bolding some of the like border lines to help direct to the eye where it wants to go where you want it to go. Because tracking systems, a lot of them can’t handle lots of graphics, they can’t handle logos, or if you put them in, they’re not going to be read and then you’re misusing space. You only have a couple pages. Why do you want to put stuff a whole bunch of stuff in there that might not be read? One of the biggest mistakes I see is people will contact me and they say I haven’t gotten any interviews. I don’t know what’s going on. I look in the whole resumes constructed in a table and you can’t see the line, you have to literally be in the Word document in some tracking systems can read and tables and some can’t. So just knowing that and I have another I have a blog post on my on my blog, about tracking systems, it gives an overview. So really needing to be aware about the AI factors, as well as the people factors where you’re thinking kind of a billboard, they don’t grab their attention enough to have them give me a call.

Kevin Anselmo
I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about strategy failure.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Yeah, it goes back to what I said before keeping the end in mind and your if you want to think about as the solution to their problem. So if they’re looking for a leader and you are going to be leading people and you are gonna have budget management responsibilities, and your resume presents you as an exceptional technician, if you really know your stuff, you are the best at what you do. It shows nothing about how you lead teams or how you manage money, or that you have a leadership philosophy. It’s a failure strategy. So, you have to think it’s not just making sure we have strong writing. It’s not just making sure we have really strong, powerful, precise bullet points. It is those things, but it doesn’t matter if your bullet points are all about how you are the best in communications. And you can write the best, most effective white papers and all this stuff about communications and you’re applying for a director of communications role. Then you have to show you can lead people you can lead teams you have you can have a vision and execute on it. So, it’s really in that big picture sense making sure you’re pairing up that who you want to be known as with, with what they need and what they’re looking for.

Kevin Anselmo
Yeah, great. Yeah, the one negativity out there. And there’s a lot of people who might be looking for a job and they might be feeling overwhelmed. Maybe I thought it’d be great to kind of conclude this episode by sharing a positive story of maybe that, you know, maybe it was different time period where there wasn’t Coronavirus disruptions, but you know that that individual that you worked with that was disgruntled and, you know, the resume wasn’t where it needed to be. You know, you mentioned someone who kept getting rejected and rejected rejected, maybe Can you close out and just share an example of how structuring your resume the right way communicating in a strategic way can lead to a really good outcome?

Heidi Scott Giusto
I think this the example I’ll share it is a recent one a person he was it was an unfortunate circumstance. stands where his role was eliminated. Not just because of a reduction in workforce, but because of a performance issue and there is a backstory to it, it’s always more complicated than it might appear on the surface. And he was very proactive. And he contacted me, and we work together through not just the resume, but the cover letter and LinkedIn and interview prep. So, the recipes are a part of this, but the idea is very motivated. He was very proactive, he was doing everything that he could do. And ultimately, he ended up with three job offers and he was able to negotiate, and he accepted, and he is starting in a few days from right now when we’re recording this. And so, it’s the resume has a lot of power to kill your chances. Now if you see the resume and inside lead LEAD, and there’s a mixture of circle, and square bullet points and M dashes and N dashes, and Jan and January’s that’s, that can kill your chance, call it fair, fair or not, those details can kill your chance. But if you have a well written resume, and you’re doing all these other things, right, it can accelerate your job campaign. And you can get where you want to be. And there is still hiring going on. Now, obviously, some, some sectors and industries are much more effective than others. But I have clients, I’m doing interview prep regularly. And this is not for theoretical interviews. This is for interviews that are happening, you know, each and every day even still in this timeframe.

Kevin Anselmo
Yeah. So, my friends out there listening who might be in a situation where you’re, you know, concerned about what’s next. don’t overwhelm yourself with the negative headlines and listen to what Heidi says.

Heidi Scott Giusto
Exactly. And maybe I’m a sucker for a good quote in one of my favorite quotes is from Teddy Roosevelt’s “do what you can, where you are with what you have.”

Kevin Anselmo
The historian coming out of you.

Heidi Scott Giusto
I guess so. I love quotes. So, this was fun, what’s on tap for you later on today.

Kevin Anselmo
So, one of the things that I’m working on I kind of alluded to it in previous episodes, I’m working with a group of interns, a group of young students who are going through my interview and innovator course, and it’s really been a lot of fun. So far, I’m working with four different students all remote, and they’re doing the course but then I’m also helping them on some of their personal things that they would like to, you know, enhance their skills in and so we do a I do a weekly, individual calls And then we do a group coaching call. And so, I have some work to do in terms of making sure that I’m using their time wisely and making sure it’s a great experience. So, it’s a lot of fun.

Heidi Scott Giusto
That’s wonderful. I’m sure they’re grateful to have an internship at this time too.

Kevin Anselmo
I’d like to hope so that I hope so they’re going to be editing this episode so they can be. Some of them are gonna be getting editing practice and practical experience in podcasting through their internship in the next day or so. So, they will be able to share their opinion at some point with me. And how about you it was what’s the main thing on top for you?

Heidi Scott Giusto
More one on one client work. I have some clients who have been invited to submit a cover letter. So, for some of the higher-level higher education roles use first submit the CV and then you get invited to submit a cover letter so I’m working with them. I’m going on that and another person I’m working on their CV and some more interview coaching and book editing, I do some business book editing and networking. And I’m working on a couple projects for that. So, lots of variety, lots of fun. I love the variety in what I do.

Kevin Anselmo
Amen. So, we will put a bow on this episode, and we will be back at you with our next episode in the very near future. If those of you listening have ideas of content you would like us to cover please reach out, let us know. You know, you can follow us both on LinkedIn. Our LinkedIn profiles are in the show notes. Love to hear your suggestions when we come at you with some other different types of content, some interviews and so forth. So, look forward to being back in your airboats in the near future. Until then take very good care and so long for now.

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