Transcripts are automatically created, and are about 95% accurate. Apologies for any errors.

[00:00:00] Michael Hawk: I started nature’s archive podcast in an effort to understand the stories of people, making a difference for the environment. I needed to be inspired and wanted to learn how they did it and share that inspiration and knowledge with anyone willing to listen. While we haven’t strayed too far from those initial aspirations of this podcast. I do have many more topic- centric episodes than I did at the start. So today’s episode is a bit like back to my roots. My guest is Leslie Inman, the founder of the wildly popular pollinator friendly yard’s group on Facebook. With 184,000 members, it’s perhaps the top spot for people to discuss sustainable personal landscaping. And even if you’re not on Facebook, it’s pretty likely that you’ve seen her images and infographics. Leslie’s story is an amazing example of how little curiosity can be converted into a hugely impactful movement. Today we discussed not only how the group is formed, but the lessons that she’s learned along the way, this includes how to reach people who may be skeptical about say inviting insects to their yards and how to make it easy to get started and so much more. Oh, and one more thing. Leslie is also the author of the books. Your yard is nature and the butterfly egg and the little tree

[00:01:09] So without further delay Leslie Inman.

[00:01:12] So can you tell me how you first got interested in nature in general?

[00:01:16] Leslie Inman: I was just always interested in nature as a kid, just always outside and loved being in nature. Always writing poetry about nature and just, yea.

[00:01:29] Michael Hawk: Was there anything specific that caught your eye even as a kid, like the birds or the plants or anything like that?

[00:01:35] Leslie Inman: Well, I just remember if a tree came down being very upset and then realizing that my friends, often that kind of thing did not upset them. So I thought, oh, I guess not everyone gets really upset when they see trees cut, so I guess it was just I had an affinity for nature and trees.

[00:01:58] Michael Hawk: And what led you then to, I’m making an assumption here because your group is Pollinator Friendly Yards. So what led you to focus on pollinators?

[00:02:07] Leslie Inman: Yeah, it didn’t start out with pollinators. It started out with, for years, driving down my street and seeing lawns being sprayed and just the use of chemicals. Just after the trucks would leave, I would see birds flying around and they’re, of course, they’re going to be landing on those lawns and that it just, there was no internet back then this period of time.

[00:02:33] So you couldn’t quickly research, what are they using? But I just, it just looked wrong and there’s a caution sign on those lawns. So as soon as Facebook came around, that’s where I started immediately, looking up information and posting about not using those toxic products.

[00:02:51] Michael Hawk: Yeah. So you noticed this disconnect between like a sign saying stay off the lawn yet, you know, the animals, the birds are not staying off the lawn.

[00:03:01] Leslie Inman: Exactly. They can’t read that caution sign. Yes.

[00:03:05] Michael Hawk: Now, you alluded to, we were talking about Dr. Tallamy. You mentioned that he’s part of the reason why you’re doing what you do today. Can you tell me how he inspired you?

[00:03:15] Leslie Inman: That group started, or actually on my personal page, it was growing. I had started to learn how to make graphics about yard products that were sold. someone said, you, do you know Doug Tallamy or have you ever listened to him? And so, I remember that night I got on YouTube and I found one of his videos and I was just doing stuff around the house and I was listening to him and it was Earth shattering. It was profound. It was, there was so much there that I did not know and that he explained so wonderfully and how our yards can benefit nature profoundly. And I just didn’t know any of that.

[00:03:59] And so that was about eight or nine years ago. I had already started a personal page about bad products. And then, you know, bad lawn chemicals. And then I, um, heard Doug Tallamy, and I said, oh my gosh, there’s so much more to what you can do with your yard.

[00:04:19] Michael Hawk: when did the concept or title or the, you know, something that’s close to what you have today of Pollinator Friendly Yards on Facebook, when did that come to be?

[00:04:29] Leslie Inman: So my personal page grew to a limit of five thousand. And then, I learned, oh, you can form these groups and get members. And so I switched over from my personal page to a, group and, by then I had learned about Doug teaching about host plants. Never had I ever heard about a host plant before.

[00:04:53] And so I realized native host plants, if you put this plant in your yard, then you’re going to have this caterpillar and this butterfly. So it just became Pollinator Friendly because I was learning about caterpillars and I was learning about butterflies and their connection to native plants. It was a huge awakening also to learn about the fact that honeybees are not native and that, it’s our native bees that need help. And as soon as I put the native plants in, all the native bees started coming. So it was all coming together in my mind and then I formed Pollinator Friendly Yards.

[00:05:33] Michael Hawk: Yeah. And on the honeybee side, I I’ve taken to calling them livestock.

[00:05:38] Leslie Inman: Yep.

[00:05:38] Michael Hawk: Because here in California. it’s not at all uncommon. just a couple of months ago, I was visiting this natural area that’s on the edge of the Central Valley. And it was, it turned out that there was this little plot of land that was staging ground for the bees.

[00:05:51] And they had, hundreds of boxes of honeybee colonies, just waiting to be deployed across the Central Valley for all the fruit and nuts and everything that they, that they grow there. And it was just mind boggling. I wish I’d gotten a photo. I don’t know why I didn’t take photos of it, but just stacks and stacks and stacks of honeybees that were probably flown in from across the country.

[00:06:13] So it’s crazy.

[00:06:13] Leslie Inman: Right. It is.

[00:06:15] Michael Hawk: It evolved into Pollinator Friendly Yards. Did you ever feel like by focusing on pollinators that you were excluding any important parts of the environment?

[00:06:24] Leslie Inman: No, it’s been fun teaching everybody about the connection that, if you want birds, then you’ve got to have these host plants that will have caterpillars so that the caterpillars can feed the baby birds. Actually, a lot of people are really interested in pollinators, but they think, I guess they’re thinking honeybees or they’re maybe some of them are thinking bumblebees, but then they come to our group and they realize all insects, if they’re native to the area, they’re so important, and they feed the birds, and that whole cycle. So I guess I reel them in with pollinators and then teach them about, you gotta be thinking about caterpillars and native plants and a lot more.

[00:07:07] Michael Hawk: I think it’s a great strategy. A lot of people, you’re right. If they’re thinking about pollinators, they may start with honeybees and then you can teach them. They may also be thinking butterflies or monarchs or, you know, things like that too. You know, like the charismatic, creatures that then, okay, now you hook them.

[00:07:22] Leslie Inman: I’m having to slow down because the people who are posting, they want to post monarchs and milkweed and, we need more. We need to think bigger than just monarchs and milkweed. So I’m trying to get more people uh, what about this host plant and this butterfly and this caterpillar?

[00:07:41] Michael Hawk: You’ve had this evolution of Pollinator Friendly Yards that began as a personal page. so it’s probably hard to answer this question, but how old is this endeavor?

[00:07:51] Leslie Inman: I think I started the group seven years ago.

[00:07:56] Michael Hawk: Seven years?

[00:07:57] Leslie Inman: Yeah, I can’t believe it’s been that.

[00:07:59] Michael Hawk: How would you characterize its growth over that time? Cause you already had a pretty big following when you started the group, it sounds like.

[00:08:06] Leslie Inman: Yeah, so we started with a base of around five thousand people because they kind of moved over. Well, then I just got better and better at the graphics, and then someone told me, you’ve gotta put your group name at the bottom of these graphics. And that was very early on, and then I was like, of course, why am I not doing that?

[00:08:26] So, now I make sure all of them have. And I’ve gotten better and better at the graphics. It’s funny to see some of my early ones, which wouldn’t get any attention. But also I think, and this is a good thing. I think it’s growing in popularity, that there’s so many pollinator groups now. And a lot of them are specific, like pollinators on native plants.

[00:08:51] And so there’s a large diversity of groups now.

[00:08:55] Michael Hawk: Yeah, the word is definitely spreading. I have a couple of questions maybe. So you mentioned your graphics have gotten better over time. Tell me more about that. What about them is better today than when you started?

[00:09:07] Leslie Inman: I just had never thought about making a graphic that would be eye catching, educational and get people’s attention. And I saw this woman, she was really involved with, uh, Monsanto before it became Bayer, and telling people about GMOs and all those things and I just saw that she was making graphics and bringing people to her group and so I was like, oh, I can do that for Pollinator Friendly Yards.

[00:09:35] So I just started making bad graphics and little by little, I got on Canva. I don’t know if you know Canva, but it’s great.

[00:09:42] Michael Hawk: How many people are currently on the group?

[00:09:45] Leslie Inman: 184,000, I think.

[00:09:48] Michael Hawk: Yeah. Which is wild.

[00:09:49] Leslie Inman: Yeah.

[00:09:50] Michael Hawk: Has it been a steady growth over these years, or have there been moments of fits and starts where something happens in the press and more people come or, you know, anything like that?

[00:10:02] Leslie Inman: Usually it will be a graphic that does really well and is shared everywhere. It’s been more fits and starts this year. I feel like during the pandemic, the growth was huge. People were on their computers. Sometimes there’ll be a conversation, someone, often it’s a heart wrenching story of someone who’s,saying, I’m, I’ve been working on my, pollinator yard and putting in native plants, and my, my neighbor sprayed, and this is what happened.

[00:10:31] People want to talk about that and that’ll bring in people joining.

[00:10:35] Michael Hawk: What types of topics do you like to see in the group? The monarchs and milkweed is, you know, we, you want to get beyond that. So obviously there’s some of those types of topics. Just curious what else you would like to see people share.

[00:10:48] Leslie Inman: Sometimes I have to tell them what I want. So, I, um, will put a little, it’s amazing how well it works too. I will say, post below a picture, if you don’t mind me sharing it, of a native bee on a native plant. And then I’ll get the most beautiful pictures and I’ll say, put your, you know, location and any other info.

[00:11:13] And then I screenshot those and I make those into posts. And then people like it because they’re getting their beautiful picture shared everywhere. Because I get so many posts to the entire group and it’s so exhausting to go through them all, so it’s good when I can just direct it and I can say, here’s what I want to see.

[00:11:34] Or show us a picture of your, how’s your native plant garden looking right now. Post below if you don’t mind me sharing it. And that’s been great.

[00:11:42] Michael Hawk: Yeah, I’ve seen some other groups do similar things and they have specific days of, first Monday of the month, you know, share your photos and I’ll pick one to reach, you know, stuff like that. So I can see how it becomes necessary at the scale you’re dealing with to,

[00:11:56] Leslie Inman: Yes.

[00:11:57] Michael Hawk: to do that. But regular people, like, I tore out my lawn finally, a couple of years ago and replaced it with native plants.

[00:12:06] Primarily, primarily. There’s a few, a few succulents that aren’t native that we like, and, a couple of things like that. So those transformations, are those, do you encourage people to share their personal transformations like that?

[00:12:17] Leslie Inman: People love before and after pictures. That is the best. that would be a good thing to ask people to share. To say, can you put a before and after picture? But a lot of times those will come up anyway on posts, and I always share those. And people explaining, I took this, all these non-natives out and I put in all these natives and people love it.

[00:12:39] Yeah, that’s popular.

[00:12:41] Michael Hawk: I often get into the weeds and I lead bioblitzes. I take people out and I show them these insect-plant interactions. Sometimes, like even, when I say into the weeds, like I, I need to come up with a better phrase because I don’t like calling plants weeds, but, but that’s an expression.

[00:12:59] But, like I’ll show things like galls or leaf miners or things like that as, as a good demonstration that like blows people’s minds. It’s a demonstration of these interactions that exist. How does information like that fit in your group? Is that reasonable to post about? You probably don’t want it to become like an, ID my leaf miner group or something like that.

[00:13:21] But as a story?

[00:13:23] Leslie Inman: About every once in a while I try, I really control the content and I mix it up. So it’s not all one thing. And often I have to say, we are not the, how do I get rid of group? The bug man is this guy who can tell you how to use stuff from your pantry that’s safe to get rid of, something you have to get rid of, but mostly we’re saying insects are, native insects are good. We’re trying to bring them in. Yeah.

[00:13:48] So I try, every once in a while I’ll put a, what is this photo? And everybody enjoys that. And there’s so much to learn and there’s so many insects. We could go on and on and on with that, but like with the galls, you know, sometimes the birds know to break into those galls and eat the insects inside.

[00:14:10] So there’s just so much good information. That to share with people in a little blurb where they can learn.

[00:14:18] Michael Hawk: So sharing stories, stories of ecology and how your native plants are supporting this bigger picture that works its way up the trophic levels. Those are fair game. It sounds like.

[00:14:27] Leslie Inman: Yes. And like I posted in my group about, leave your stalks, your native plant stalks standing because, and I showed all these pictures of birds eating the seeds, like before we went to the store and bought these big bags of bird seed, that’s where birds got their seed. So you’ve got to let those stand, even starting at the beginning of the summer.

[00:14:49] Michael Hawk: For your information, for the Jumpstart Nature podcast, one of our other episodes that actually ties with this theme, we’re tentatively titling it, Plant Your Bird Feeder and.

[00:14:59] Leslie Inman: I love that.

[00:15:02] Michael Hawk: And we, we talked to some researchers, some academics, and also the Project Feederwatch lead at Cornell Lab of Ornithology, a few other folks, you know, about the actually negative side effects of feeding birds. There’s a balance there, I don’t, I don’t think like people need to go and take their feeders down, but there’s some care and some considerations that have to go into it.

[00:15:21] And one of it, by the way, is that a lot of the bird seed that we source is not grown in ecological friendly ways. It’s an agricultural crop and we’re buying bird seed that is degrading, potentially, the migratory route of some of the birds that we’re hoping to attract. it’s an interesting set of complexities that I don’t know that people are ready to hear, but, but we’re going to try.

[00:15:44] Leslie Inman: Exactly. Exactly. But I’m just trying to, for me, it’s just so much easier. I see so many birds in my backyard and I’m not doing anything. My yard has become so no maintenance. I mean, I, I do have a tiny bit of grass in the front and in the back, a tiny bit, and we have a little electric mower.

[00:16:04] And then the birds are eating out of all the natives, so it’s easy.

[00:16:08] Michael Hawk: Okay. Tell me about your yard. You’ve converted it to native plants. What does maintenance of that look like?

[00:16:14] Leslie Inman: So it’s just been no maintenance, especially this year. So it’s such a tiny amount of maintenance. The lawn is so wasteful, but I do keep just a tiny bit of it in the front. I certainly wouldn’t spray it or use anything on it. And a little walkway in the back. And so we have just a little electric mower.

[00:16:34] And, it’s a good little mini workout, but really easy. And then all around my grassy area is our native plants. There’s just life all over them. I can see where little leaves have been rolled back and I’ve got silver-spotted skippers and, just the mountain mint in the back is just covered in native bees and wasps.

[00:16:56] So there’s just life everywhere. And I particularly not wanted it to look crazy and wild because I don’t think I’m going to bring people in that way. So especially in the front, it is very calm and tame and easily understood to people who don’t understand native plants. It fits in with the other yards, even though it’s almost 100% native.

[00:17:20] Michael Hawk: It looks intentional and maintained and aesthetically pleasing.

[00:17:25] Leslie Inman: Yes, but a total habitat at the same time.

[00:17:28] Michael Hawk: this new paradigm of plants that you have in your yard, do you have issues with pests at all?

[00:17:34] Leslie Inman: No. My friend who does the same kind of thing, who’s very, into this habitat idea. Years ago, before I had native plants, I would open up my back door. And roaches here in Atlanta are huge, they’re big, they’re everywhere, and I would open up my back door and they would scatter. Even when I got a no insect light, that didn’t attract any insects, they would scatter.

[00:18:00] Now, I see nothing, like, I open the back door and it’s nothing congregating around my back door, and I think that’s because I have lots of little lizards, I’ve seen little geckos. It’s such a healthy ecosystem back there and in front of carnivore, predator-type insects and little tiny creatures, that they’re keeping everything in balance.

[00:18:24] Michael Hawk: Nice. Yeah. That makes sense. When you think of monocultures, whether it’s like a big agricultural field or a lawn, a lot of times the reasons we have pests is because something is out of balance there, the natural predators aren’t there. It’s a field day for whatever that out of control pest is.

[00:18:41] So that makes sense.

[00:18:42] Leslie Inman: Exactly. It’s really worked.

[00:18:44] Michael Hawk: Backing up a little bit. I asked you how many people are in the group? I manage a teeny tiny group, called backyard wildlife that only has like 300 people. So it’s totally different game. But are there any other interesting metrics that you want to highlight about Pollinator Friendly Yards?

[00:19:02] Leslie Inman: This past week, I, I made a nice graphic with, it’s so easy with fireflies. There’s so many beautiful images. And then I just wrote simply, ‘mosquito spraying kills fireflies.’ I love the likes, but the shares are so meaningful because they’re educating their friends. And a lot of groups share my graphics.

[00:19:22] And so there were about 4,000 shares. And so, let’s say two people see that, but you know, that could be 8,000 people who saw that image and maybethought about changing their behavior. And then sometimes if I have time, I’ve joined a lot of environmental groups and I will also go and just share to other environmental groups.

[00:19:46] Because maybe the Sierra Club members aren’t thinking about what they can do at home. They’re thinking about, let’s save this forest, which is wonderful, yes. But also, what you can do at home is what we’re all about.

[00:20:00] Michael Hawk: Absolutely. And something that’s probably an interesting concept to, also share that, when you’re talking about this specific graphic, is there really isn’t such a thing as a, and the proper pest term is also escaping me at the moment.

[00:20:14] A lot of times chemicals are sold as being targeted to an individual species, and that’s the word I’m missing at the moment, but that typically is not the case. Most pesticides affect a broad spectrum of species, and I like that that’s what you’re implying with mosquito spraying, you know, killing the fireflies.

[00:20:38] And that’s probably a concept people need to understand more generally as well, that there’s side effects

[00:20:44] Leslie Inman: huge, huge side effects, yes. You know, with the mosquito spraying, they’re killing the natural predators, like the dragonflies. They’re using pyrethroids, which would kill the dragon – any insect will not make it. And then I was posting about this large nectar-eating, it’s called a mosquito, but it’s this beautiful insect that eats nectar, and it also consumes mosquito larvae.

[00:21:13] So, they’re killing all of those creatures that would be working for us and helping us get rid of mosquitoes, but broadcast spray.

[00:21:23] Michael Hawk: chatting, kind of, casually about it. Something like from an ecology standpoint that I think of in these scenarios is, I love aphids by the way. when I see aphids, I get excited because I know I’m going to see other cool stuff happening, on that plant.

[00:21:36] But, you know, if somebody takes a perspective that an aphid is a pest, and then they spray the aphids and they, they kill the predators at the same time. They kill the syrphid flies, the hover flies, the aphid wasps, you know, whoever is, is going to come and eat those anyway, the ladybugs. Those aphids, their reproductive rates are so much faster than the predators’ reproductive rates. And that’s exactly why you end up in the pest cycle is you kill the pest, you kill the predators. Those pests are going to come back at 100x the rate that the predators are, and now you’re stuck. You’re going to be spraying forever.

[00:22:09] Leslie Inman: Yeah, well said. That’s, yeah. That would make a good post. I excited when I see aphids. Why? Because I’m gonna see ladybugs. I don’t know if they’re gonna be native ladybugs. But yeah, you’re gonna see all kinds of cool insects.

[00:22:24] Michael Hawk: Yeah, I’ve done a few posts. One of them, I called aphids the plankton of, of land. Because they’re so numerous and diverse and they feed so many things. It’s the start of that trophic, you know, cascade kind of thing. and that actually resonated pretty well.

[00:22:40] And I’ve seen some other people now saying the same thing. So it’s like, hey, my little part, I’ve done my part.

[00:22:45] Leslie Inman: Right, right.

[00:22:47] Michael Hawk: Okay. So you mentioned your own story of, I guess transformation, you were already nature aware and nature connected. So, um.

[00:22:55] Leslie Inman: But nothing like, well, I didn’t even like, I, before Doug Tallamy, what he taught me changed everything.

[00:23:02] Michael Hawk: I’m going to assume that with as many people as you have, and as long as it’s been running, in your Facebook group, you’ve probably seen lots of other stories of personal transformation.

[00:23:13] Leslie Inman: Yes. Wonderful stories. Great stories. Like my friend, who I saw today, had been a gardener for years. And then when we met, I said, you’ve got to see Doug Tallamy. And she had been just a conventional gardener with non native plants. And she’s just changed everything since we met, and since, you know, she learned about Doug Tallamy’s work. And people are constantly saying, oh, I didn’t know about all this.

[00:23:42] And now I’ve, I’ve changed the way I do everything in my yard. I’m meeting with someone tomorrow. I’m going to her house. And she says that it was because she saw my group that she changed her yard. And so that’s just the best. And that’s the whole reason we’re doing it is we’re getting more people on board.

[00:23:59] And it has grown online, it’s just growing. And the knowledge now, someone will ask a question to the group and the answers are so much better than they used to be. People are becoming more knowledgeable and they’re helping other people and it’s growing online. I just wish it would grow in my street, but that’ll come, that’ll come.

[00:24:21] Michael Hawk: And then each of those people that, that transform, their circle of friends become aware. More than likely, they see it, you know, some conversation comes up. So, yeah, the network effect certainly takes effect. So a huge part of wildlife friendly habitats is supporting insects.

[00:24:37] And we’ve been talking about that. And, you know, a lot of people are very insect averse. Every insect, except for maybe butterflies and ladybugs, are pests or scary or whatever, turns people off to them. So how do you end up helping people get past that potential impediment?

[00:24:54] Leslie Inman: I think by showing them really beautiful pictures of like luna moths, those are just so incredibly beautiful. And if you think about it, many people wear shirts and clothing that are covered with dragonfly motifs or butterfly, definitely butterflies.

[00:25:12] And then everybody loves luna moths and everybody loves fireflies. So you start with the ones that they already love, and then you introduce them to the, there’s a million beautiful moths, especially, and that people don’t know about and, and teaching children. And, you know, there are some cultures that grow and eat insects and the insects are there to eat in the marketplace and it’s no big deal.

[00:25:36] So it’s a, I think it’s a cultural thing we can learn to appreciate. That’s the thing is we can share on social media, so many beautiful insects. It’s insect photographs that we never could before, and that’s made a huge difference. I know there are bad parts of social media.

[00:25:54] Everybody’s always focusing on the bad parts. But there’s so, so much good environmental work you can do on social media.

[00:26:01] Michael Hawk: what are some of the common mistakes that people have when they want to transform and create a pollinator friendly yard?

[00:26:09] Leslie Inman: Maybe not really understanding what a native plant is. Just thinking that whatever they’ve seen around must be native. And, you definitely have to go deeper. And now you just have to get in touch with your native plant society. You can learn through them. We have so many great apps now that will tell you whether a plant is native or not, but we tell people, you just can’t go to your local conventional garden shop or definitely not the big box stores and find native plants. And if you do find one, it could be a cultivar that’s really nothing like the original, and then it could be filled with pesticides.

[00:26:50] So you’ve got to have at least one place in your state that you could go in the spring or the fall and get native plants.

[00:26:58] Michael Hawk: Yeah, my personal experience is some of the, you know, big box stores almost a lost cause at this point. Some of the larger nurseries, the chain nurseries, seem to try, but a lot of the native plants are mislabeled. It’s been my experience. there’s one in particular I feel so bad about.

[00:27:15] I wanted to buy native milkweed and it was tropical milkweed, that they were selling, but it was tiny. It was just this little sprout. so I, I couldn’t tell what it was at that point, but it was labeled as a native milkweed. So those things happen. And then I’ll ask about, you know, are these treated with pesticides, and even some of these smaller nurseries can’t tell me because it’s such a complex growing system with third party growers that supply and they don’t know, they don’t ask. So I think that’s another thing we can do is ask our nurseries, are these treated or not? And if they can’t tell us definitively, don’t buy from them to start to apply that pressure and have them start asking their growers.

[00:27:59] Leslie Inman: Exactly.

[00:28:00] Michael Hawk: Native plant sales are great though. I totally agree. That’s, probably the best way to do it.

[00:28:06] Leslie Inman: Yes. And then if you just like, I don’t know if you have this, but we have a woman who’s just committed to native plants. And she had a farm outside of Atlanta and now she has a small place in Atlanta and she’s just committed to growing them. She understands about habitat and she wants to grow these to feed all the beneficial insects. So it’s just perfect. So everybody needs that in their town.

[00:28:31] Michael Hawk: Something that, that dawned on me the other day, I was thinking about cultivars, you brought up cultivars and, sometimes there are cultivars that are developed to, have bigger flowers or, adopt some trait, but I’m assuming there’s also a profit motive there because you can trademark the name patent, maybe even make it a cultivar that cannot be propagated by seed. So then there’s a constant revenue stream that you have. Whereas the native plants, like pure native plants, a lot of them are fairly easy to propagate and it takes away a revenue stream. Do you think that the profit motive is part of the problem here?

[00:29:11] Leslie Inman: Yes. I went to a seminar once on native plants and that’s where I first heard about this trademark, that you can’t just find a plant, a native plant in the wild and trademark it. But you can, if you alter it in some way then they can trademark it. So they, the incentive is to alter our precious native plants that are feeding beneficial insects and birds and everything else. And so I’m very concerned about what’s going to happen as native plants become more popular. And the big, if the big horticulture group, uh, planters get on board and start altering our plants. If you alter their height, a lot of them, I love how elegant and tall they are.

[00:29:54] They want to make them short. We don’t know what that does to the nectar, what that does to the pollen, what that does to the nutrition. Some native bees are very sensitive to the time of blooming. It could alter the bloom time. It’s just bad news. This cultivar thing is, there’s, the process of evolution has worked beautifully for millions of years and it’s very sad to see people altering them.

[00:30:22] So I’m constantly preaching about that.

[00:30:24] Michael Hawk: I see a lot of focus about leaving dandelions for early pollinators. And then also, uh, the No Mow May has gotten a lot of traction the last few years. What do you think about those initiatives when it comes to the bigger picture of pollinator friendly yards?

[00:30:43] Leslie Inman: I think it’s a start. It’s a start. And, if somebody is doing that and willing to take the wrath of their neighbors and not mow, then they’re very interested. Well, they’re pretty interested in pollinators and then maybe they’ll get to the next step to be able to identify what plants are growing.

[00:31:00] Dandelions are not native, but they’re a great plant. They’re completely edible and we shouldn’t spray herbicides on them. And they’re, not out-competing anything. So they’re,they’re not, we should all be eating dandelions, but, uh, it’s a good start. I think No Mow May is a place for people just like with monarchs and milkweed and, it’s a start.

[00:31:21] Michael Hawk: I think that’s a very healthy way to look at it because I saw some backlash this year. And like you, it’s like, well, you don’t want to slap someone on the hand for trying because now they’re going to be less likely to try.

[00:31:32] Leslie Inman: Exactly.

[00:31:33] Michael Hawk: So how else can people educate themselves then about what are the native plants, where they can find them?

[00:31:42] We talked about a few things already.

[00:31:44] Leslie Inman: I tell everyone constantly get involved in your local chapter of your native plant society, because people there can help you. I had people giving me plants when I first joined, they’ll get, help you get started. Um, there will be people within there that will teach you how to grow your own from seed.

[00:32:02] And, if it’s expensive for you, you know, the seed route is the way to go and they can get you started or Wild Ones is an excellent group. But they’re mostly on the, eastern side of the Rockies. There’s not too many Wild Ones on the west. We need more. You could start a Wild Ones chapter.

[00:32:23] We’re so lucky to already have so many of those groups.

[00:32:26] Michael Hawk: I think a lot of people are surprised to learn that so many States actually have native plant societies. You might have to Google it. You might have to take a step or two to find out how to get in contact,

[00:32:35] Leslie Inman: Yeah, every state, every state has a native plant society. You just have to find out how active they are and if they have a chapter in your area.

[00:32:43] Michael Hawk: And I found that too, that there are a lot of parks and sanctuaries that have their own native plant sales too, uh, like arboretums, will very often have native plant sales. so there, there are other means by which you can find, quality, no-pesticide native plants.

[00:33:00] Leslie Inman: Yes, yes.

[00:33:01] Michael Hawk: And how about any other words of wisdom or encouragement?

[00:33:06] If someone is kind of on the sideline, they’re wanting to do this, but it’s maybe it’s overwhelming or they just need a little nudge to take the first step. What do you recommend?

[00:33:14] Leslie Inman: Um, well, I am always posting about, there are six, keystone species, which are oak, willow, and, prunus cherry. Those are three tree species and then, goldenrod, Helianthus, sunflower, and, Aster. And if you could just start with those flowering plants or if you have room for those trees, those six keystone species can just help the environment and start your habitat immediately.

[00:33:44] With just, putting a few of those in because they host so many caterpillars and butterflies and that helps the birds. So just start small and don’t get overwhelmed and, leaving the leaves in the fall is something so simple, just break it off your little and put it under your bushes. Birds thrash through those and look for insects and helps the fireflies.

[00:34:07] And so, there’s so many easy things we can do to get started.

[00:34:12] Michael Hawk: Absolutely. So take a small first step if needed or large, if you’re willing, but.

[00:34:18] Leslie Inman: Right, right. But maybe it will grow. Yeah, turning off the lights is huge, you know, so easy. Don’t string your whole backyard with lights. With, I know that’s pretty and you can use it when you have a party, but to leave those on every night. It’s very disruptive to fireflies and moths, the beautiful moths we have.

[00:34:39] Michael Hawk: Absolutely. And more, there’s so much amazing research coming out about nighttime light pollution. Dr. Travis Longcore. Have you heard of him?

[00:34:48] Leslie Inman: No, mm mm.

[00:34:49] Michael Hawk: I don’t know what his title is, but I’m going to call him a light pollution ecologist, but.

[00:34:54] Leslie Inman: Oh, wow.

[00:34:55] Michael Hawk: You might want to look for him online.

[00:34:57] He has some presentations out there on YouTube.

[00:35:00] All right so that made up title that i gave dr Longcore really doesn’t do him justice so i had to look it up and get it right so he’s an adjunct professor in the ucla institute of the environment and sustainability and from his personal website he describes himself as an environmental scientist and advocate working on ecological management stewardship and design

[00:35:20] So you have your Facebook group, obviously. Are you active in any other form of social media?

[00:35:26] Leslie Inman: no, I’ve been mostly on Facebook and, I’m on TikTok, but I just go to anyone who shows me something about nature, I write in there. comments, read Doug Tallamy, you’ll never see nature the same way again. And I feel like I’ve done that hundreds of times, but I’m learning. I’m going through TikTok and seeing what works, how people get positive attention.

[00:35:50] And so hopefully I’ll, I’ll start some videos and things on TikTok. Oh, Doug Tallamy has, well, his people who are helping him have Homegrown National Park on TikTok. They have good videos.

[00:36:02] Michael Hawk: I was asking about other resources, in terms of finding plants, what about just learning about this space? So we have, Doug Tallamy and Homegrown National Park are great resources, your local native plant society.

[00:36:14] Do you have any, books or videos or other recommendations that people should take a look at?

[00:36:21] Leslie Inman: I saw Nancy Lawson speak, uh, The Humane Gardener. Oh my gosh. She did the most beautiful, her graphics. She had videos in the background as she was speaking of how things came to life in her yard and all the beautiful little creatures that, once she left the leaves and turned off the lights and, put in all the native plants and how everything changed.

[00:36:46] And it was very moving, but her book, The Humane Gardener is wonderful. Her, her, well, do you know her?

[00:36:53] Michael Hawk: Actually, I don’t, so I somehow, I have blind spots apparently.

[00:36:58] Leslie Inman: She’s, well, no, you, I can tell you know a lot about all this from what you’ve said, but no, she’s fabulous. And then I’m excited about Mary Reynolds in the UK. She wrote We Are the Ark, like the boat, like the biblical story. And, she’s very much into native plants and they call it rewilding in England and, uh, Dave Goulson is all about native bees in the UK. And right now those arethe people who have influenced me the most.

[00:37:32] I know there are probably more.

[00:37:34] Michael Hawk: Oh, there’s so much good stuff out there.

[00:37:36] Leslie Inman: Mm hmm.

[00:37:37] Michael Hawk: And rewilding as a concept is starting to take hold, I think here in the US as well, beyond just yards, but as a, broader concept. So it’s really interesting to see how these things are going to play out over the next few years.

[00:37:51] I’m going to ask a few other questions here real quick. So how can people join your Facebook group?

[00:37:56] Leslie Inman: Every day I’m letting people in. So all they have to do is request. Just go on there and find Pollinator Friendly Yards on Facebook and request to join. And that is, it’s hard to keep up with such a huge group. I mean, give personal attention to each person, but I make sure I let those people in. And it’s more of an educational thing.

[00:38:19] People might not get to post as much as they would in a smaller group, but I think they can share. That’s what people like about it is they can share and maybe their neighbors will see it and they can get more people on board when they join and share.

[00:38:35] Michael Hawk: And do you have any remaining words of encouragement or suggestions for people who are interested in doing more?

[00:38:43] Leslie Inman: Join us and learn more and take those, the most basic steps of don’t spray, don’t go for the perfect lawn. You know, shrink that lawn and put the natives in it and start small and don’t get overwhelmed. And someone at the native plant society in your state will help you.

[00:39:01] Michael Hawk: Sounds good. And is there anything that comes to your mind that in the course of our discussion that you feel is important that we haven’t covered?

[00:39:10] Leslie Inman: How the leave the leaves is, is just hugely important and, um, loving seeing, gas leaf blowers being banned and people, I know that the batteries have their own problems, but getting these landscapers and these gas machines out of our yards will help nature a lot. So I’m glad to see there’s a movement happening there.

[00:39:32] Michael Hawk: That’s another area where there’s a lot of unintended or unexpected consequences from the noise. And the, uh, actually the pollution from small motors is a lot worse. There’s less control, less oversight on those.

[00:39:46] Okay, Leslie, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for all the time that you spent today.