In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about self-advocacy. My guest, Laura Browne, who specializes in helping women to ask for what they’re worth, shares her personal journey of navigating salary negotiations in the workplace and what she learned from these experiences. She also shares insights and strategies to help women more confidently negotiate for themselves.

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About My Guest

Laura Browne provides women training and coaching they can use to be more successful and make more money at work through her company, Career Tips For Women.
She is passionate about helping women ask for raises and negotiate better starting salaries. She is the author of 10 books, including Increase Your Income: 7 Rules for Women Who Want to Make More Money at Work and A Salary Cinderella Story (Or How To Make More Money Without A Fairy Godmother).

Laura has trained high potential female leaders from Fortune 100 companies how to be more successful through WOMEN Unlimited. She’s a certified business coach and has experience in leadership and management development in global tech companies.

She has been quoted as a business expert in major publications including Cosmopolitan, Family Circle magazine, and USA Weekend. She’s also a contributor to Forbes.

For free videos and information about online training, go to https://learn.careertipsforwomen.com/. For general information, go to http://www.careertipsforwomen.com.

You can contact Laura at [email protected].

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Transcript:

Kim Meninger
Welcome, Laura, I am super excited to talk to you today. And I’d love to start by asking you to let us know a little bit more about you. Great. Thank you,

Laura Browne
Kim, I am so happy to be here. So my name is Laura Browne, and I am an author, I’ll tell you a little bit about my books. I am a trainer and I’m a coach. I’m a high-performance coach. And so I’ve written 10 books, my most recent book is increase your income seven rules for women who want to make more money at work. And I’ve also written books on communication. Um, one book called Why can’t communicate like me how smart women get results at work because my focus is always helping women to be more successful at work, whether it’s through my books, or through my training courses, or anything else that I write, I really want to help women to be better at work. I love that.

Kim Meninger
Thank you. And I would love to start as I mentioned to you earlier with my couple of standard questions about what imposter syndrome means to you. And also how, if at all, has it shown up in your work or in your life?

Laura Browne
So imposter syndrome means to me typically sort of, sort of doubting yourself and discounting what you can do. And it’s interesting, I find that a lot with women I work with, and they’ll especially they’ll discount themselves a lot. And they’ll say, oh, and it doesn’t really matter, or, you know, ever everybody does this, this is what I hear a bunch. Well, everybody can do that. Or anybody can do that. I’m like, no, no, just stop right there that that is not true. I gotta tell you a story though, that so I recently I asked a guy, I was talking to a guy, and I happen to say something about imposter syndrome. And he said, What’s that? And yeah, and I said, you know, imposter syndrome, you know, when you, when you doubt yourself, you don’t believe what you can do? And he said, That’s not a thing. And I said, No, no, that that’s really a thing. You know, and most women realize, you know, we doubt ourselves. And he honest to goodness, he said to me, you just made that up, didn’t you? I said, No, I’m gonna look it up. And so it’s interesting. And I said, Okay, seriously, haven’t you ever doubted yourself? So I turned it back on him. And it’s well, he’s a really analytical guy. And he said, Well, yeah, I doubted myself. But then I looked at the facts. And the facts were I knew this, this and this. And it really hit me hard, because I thought, I can take a look at the facts and know I have, you know, I have this degree, and I have this experience. But to me, a lot of times is how I feel that I don’t feel I deserve it. And so I have to look beyond the fact or sometimes I have to remind myself of the fact and realize that and in my own life, I can think of a bunch of times when I didn’t go for a job. Because I thought I won’t get that job, who am I to apply for that job, you know, somebody else will get it. And I remember one time, a guy got the job. And I thought this is gonna sound terrible. I thought he’s not any better than me. How did he get the job? And that sort of kicked my butt a little bit and thought, wait a minute, I could have gotten that job. But I was expecting, oh, somebody else had more experience because experiences was an issue for me more experience or something else. But when I saw who actually got it, I’m like, I should have, I should have gone for it, because I actually did have a shot at it.

Kim Meninger
So you’re seeing so many great things in there, right? Because I think this whole idea of looking at the facts or recognizing just the evidence that’s in front of us is so important. And it is so easily to just be easy to dismiss. It’s so easy. Oh, but that’s not a big deal. Or anyone can do that. Or once, once we’ve gone through something. So let’s just say for example, if you aspire to go to Harvard, right? And in your mind, it’s this place that have all these smart people. And then once you get there and you do it, you’ve demystified it right? And so now it’s like, well, yeah, but I didn’t, you know, whatever I had held, I didn’t do it myself, all these different things. And so, you’re absolutely right, that that opportunity exists all the time to bring ourselves back to the facts, and he wouldn’t be here where you wouldn’t be where you are today if you didn’t have a track record of success, but making that connection between that intellectual Yes, obviously I have all of these things and that emotional but am I qualified to be here.

Laura Browne
Yeah, yeah. And that and that’s funny you say that cuz I do have a master’s degree and I and I worked like six years to get my master’s degree I cuz I was doing it while I was working full time and I had a kid and all these other things, but I do it I discount it just like that when all my maths was go, that was took me a long time or you know, wasn’t and I have to stop myself even though I teach other women don’t discount I still find myself doing it, and it drives me crazy when I catch myself like, No, I did get a master’s degree. And I did put all that time and effort into it, and I should enjoy it. And the other thing I remember, and I teach women this, I always say I say to them, w w a s GD, which is what would a successful guy do? So again, now, not what, not what would a guy do? Because I don’t care what a guy would do. But a successful guy that I know, what would he do in this case? And when I asked him, and when I asked myself, it’s like, oh, well, he would go for that job. Or he would do this or he would talk to the Boss or he would unlike well, then what stop you not to say that you should do exactly what guys do that, that’s a whole different story. But I always think, Okay, if you know what other successful person would do, then what stopping until plenty of times I have asked myself, What would a successful guy do? And I said, well, a successful guy would stop whining about this to my friends. And I would apply for it, I would go for I would talk to my or I would do something, instead of saying, Oh, I can’t do anything. And a lot of times that’s pushed me to actually go for something which sometimes I don’t get it, and sometimes they do.

Kim Meninger
But I think if you don’t do it, and you don’t get it, the regret is so much bigger, right? Because that really stuck out to me, too, if he’s not any better than me. And I know that has been a motivator for me too. Because there are times when I felt, well, I don’t want to ask that question. I’m going to sound foolish, or I don’t want to make that recommendation or say that idea. But then you hear someone else do it. Oh, I could have said it better, or that was my idea. And so I’ve gotten so frustrated by that. But now I’m just on a mission to not let someone else take my questions. Right. But I think that too, is is part of the process of recognizing, if you’re one of those people who consistently finds that other people are asking the question you were going to ask, that’s evidence that you should trust yourself. Right? That yes, that you do know what you’re doing, and that you should speak up more quickly.

Laura Browne
Oh, that’s good. That’s very good evidence. I absolutely agree with that again, and you’re looking for trends. And you’re saying I could have said that. That was in my head. What stopped me and then and then to take that leap. And so I remember, a bunch of years ago, I was working with another trainer. And the part that she was training, she kept asking people, What would you do if you knew you could not fail? And I kept actually in someone my head, I kept coming up with the same thing. And actually, it was I would write a book. And then finally her answer every single time was, well, if you don’t do it, you are going to fail. But if you so by stopping yourself, you’re gonna fail because you haven’t done it. And so that started me writing my first book, but I still use that same thing, which, like, if, if I knew that I was at a meeting, and everybody would like my idea, then I would say it. But the fact is, I won’t know that unless I open my mouth. And you know what, here’s the other thing that I’ve learned that, especially when I’m looking at other successful guys, they say stupid things in meetings, and it’s okay. And then they say something smart. But they don’t. It looks like they don’t keep winding themselves up because they said something stupid No, and said, you know, they throw out a bunch of things. One stuck, and everybody remembers that one thing. So I need to be able to do that same thing. I need to be able to throw out some stuff that is not perfect. And it’s okay that it’s not perfect.

Kim Meninger
That’s right. And the reality is I think about this a lot just as somebody who has a lot of anxiety and thinks a lot about my own mistakes is nobody else is thinking about that. Nobody. Is that room thinking about I can’t believe that can meet that stupid comment. Yep.

Laura Browne
Yep, that is so true. Yep. They’ve totally forgotten but and I’ve even I’ve actually asked people later on. Well, do you remember when I said this? I’m like, did you say that? Did you give it and they really have forgotten it. But I’ve been sort of testing it out. Or they said, Oh, that was no big deal. Okay, I am just what you said, Kim, I am making too much of a big deal about it.

Kim Meninger
Exactly. Exactly. Yep. So what else can we do? What are the other things that you talk..?

Laura Browne
Okay, so, so, so in one of my books, you know, I’ve got seven rules. And one of the things I talk about it’s business, it’s not personal. And so just sort of the idea that step back from things and don’t take everything so personally, and that gets back to what I said sort of the facts versus the feelings. The other thing I talked about is be confident. So to me, there are a bunch of things you can do to be, to be confident, you know, be prepared. I also loves random myself with supportive people. So I have a, I have a group of pals that I get together with every two weeks and on Zoom. Now of course But we support each other. And I got that through a women’s organization that I’m actually co-president of, and but any group that you can get where you can meet other women, and have a chance to connect with them, and you know, support each other I think is is wonderful. I also I push myself really hard, and I push people to turn it around. So for example, like I have to, or I was looking to get a job and I was like, Oh, I don’t have experience. And so I stopped myself. Okay, so how can I turn it around? Okay, I don’t have experience in this industry. I bring a fresh perspective. So I push women. So what is the, what is the turnaround there? And, and I think that that’s really, really important to really keep considering I have the story. Imposter syndrome. To me, if the story that I’m telling myself that’s stopping me, what’s the new story that I can tell myself, that will help me to actually move forward with something so I think that that’s, that’s really key. The other thing I absolutely love is a TED Talk by Amy Cuddy. C-U-D-D-Y, it is my favorite your lab, it is my favorite talk. And basically, it’s, if you go on, I can’t remember what the title is. It’s basically how if by standing in, you know, in a power pose for two minutes, it makes you feel so much better that you feel more confident. But I just think that’s a wonderful thing to watch. And she’s a Harvard researcher, and, and to me, all of these small things go together, there’s not one thing that you must do. But getting a lot of small things that go together can help you to be more confident, as well as looking at your past. Oh, okay, I’ll tell you a story. Um, I used to, I don’t, I don’t have it my desk anymore. But I used to have two pieces of wood in my desk drawer. And so when I had a bad day, I would open up my desk drawer, and I would look at the two pieces of wood. And what they represented, is I took a self-defense class and the guy started off and said, by the end of the self-defense class, you will be able to break this board and it was an inch, an inch wide, I don’t like that I’m never doing that. So I did, I brought the board and I took it, and I put it in my desk drawer. And so every time I had something really hard to do, I’d look at it. And I’d say to myself, I broke a board, I can do this. And so I mean, it is still in my office. But um, so that board became a symbol of, I did something incredibly hard, I can do this too. And so so what I would say to the women that are listening, pick that board for you, whether it’s a picture of something, or whether it’s a word, or whether it’s an affirmation or whatever. So when you’re feeling like man, I can’t go into that meeting, or I don’t know how I’m going to do this, have that in your mind or open the, open the dust drawer and go, I did this before I can do it. Now.

Kim Meninger
That’s such a great idea. And I think the, the sort of thread that I’m seeing through everything that you shared is to be really thoughtful about what you’re paying attention to where you’re going, because it’s so natural for us to pay attention to the negative for and that’s just how we’re wired, no protective, it’s just the way but at every moment, we have the opportunity to make a conscious choice to insert a different thought, to pay into something that, that makes us feel stronger, it makes us feel more positively about ourselves. And those little reminders are so important, because we may not get there without a prompt, right? We all process kicks in that inner critic or that fear, all of the different pieces that we talk about are activated so quickly that without that prompt, without that the board in your, your desk or that picture that reminds you of something, you may not ever shift your attention, but find those things to mind back to the positive.

Laura Browne
Absolute. And actually, here’s the so I definitely believe that. Here’s the other thing you should pay attention to, I hate to say it, you should pay attention to that negative voice because then you need to, because it’s just swirling in your head, you’re not really thinking about it. But if you stop and you listen to it, then you can address it. So for example, I was coaching somebody recently, she was so I coach women to either get raises at work, or to I coach them also or I teach them in my classes how to ask for a higher salary for a new job. So she was getting a new job. And so I remember saying to her, okay, so this is what you can do to get a higher score. And she’s actually got really small and said, Can I even do that? And so I pointed out that that was her negative self-talk that I can’t, I can’t ask, I can’t do that. I can’t get it. And so we so when I point out to her, it’s like, oh, and so by doing that, then she realized that we addressed it by doing a number of things, and she ended up getting a higher salary and a $5,000 signing bonus So by recognizing it and then putting some small steps into place, then she was able to do what she really wanted to do.

Kim Meninger
I agree with you, I think that listening to that voice is really important because it’s not going to go away. Right? Yeah, it doesn’t make it go away. There’s a very powerful reason why that voice exists. And I am a big believer in listening to what it’s afraid of right? Like, what is it? Yes, tell you that you can then incorporate that or address whatever that fear is, and make an active choice, as opposed to just getting into it or trying to quiet it. It doesn’t I think of it as almost like a screaming child to the attention. They know how to ask for it in a way. Right. Trying to, trying to ignore it doesn’t usually go very well, right. Like you, you think about that as like a very vulnerable side of yourself that really needs something right now. Like what? Listen, what is it that you need right now? And then you can, you can move forward with a plan that acknowledges that. Yeah, there’s, there’s some self-doubt or there’s some fear here, but I have other, I have other choices that I can make.

Laura Browne
Oh, I really like that. Yeah, because I agree. You can’t just shut it up. I mean, if we could set it up, we would all do that. If it were that easy. But by listening to just like a screaming child, just as you say, by listening to it, and by calming it down. And by giving it some other information, or then, then you can go on. So yeah, I really liked that one. Yeah.

Kim Meninger
Thank you. And let’s talk a little bit because I know this is one of the areas that you have you and I have been talking about lately. And I know it’s a big one for you. Is this idea of the salary conversation and what holds women back? Like what? [Yeah] What’s the biggest challenge that you see there?

Laura Browne
Oh, there are so many of them. I will tell you that the biggest one? Well, besides the fact I don’t know that I can do this. But the biggest one is really, that I’m afraid I’m going to on my boss is going to be mad at me if something bad is going to happen between me and my boss. And so it’s that whole idea of a great relationship with my boss, I’m going to ask my boss is going to be mad, or I’m going to look stupid, or there’s going to be a problem. And like the next day, I’m not going to want to talk to my boss. And I remember the first time I this is many years ago, I asked for a raise. And I like I got my courage up and I asked for a raise. And my boss immediately said no. And I was so embarrassed. And literally, I went home and I wanted to quit the next day because I thought I can’t I can’t face my boss, I just, I just messed up. And then what I learned is, I talk to a friend of mine, I thought about I went back the next day and I said, you know, basically, I said, So why just say no. And he said, Oh, it’s not raise time. And so what I did, so what we did, then, is that okay, well tell me I didn’t know when it was time was what do I need to do to get the best rates possible, and it actually built up our, you know, a relationship. And so what I try to tell women is you can ask for a raise and build that relationship with your boss. And I remember another woman I, I taught one time. And she said she went and she did a great job asking for a raise. And it was and if you ask, right, it’s just a conversation. Again, it’s not, it’s not you’re not fighting against your boss, one of the things I teach is work with your boss, your boss is your partner in this. And so afterwards, the negotiation went so well, that the boss said, Now I know why do customers love you so much because he saw her communication and negotiation style. And a lot of women don’t like negotiation, but he saw her communication style. And he saw how calm she was. And so this actually gives you an opportunity to, again, build a relationship with your boss to show your skills and to get the money that you deserve. So I, so I think it’s a win-win. But a lot of women are just are so afraid of that negative afterwards. And you know what the fact is? Sometimes you hear no. And I have heard no sometimes and it’s okay because we hear no plenty of times that you have to ask a bunch of times you have to get some no’s in order to get that yes.

Kim Meninger
Absolutely. And I, I think too, that if you live your life, avoiding no’s, right, that you create a very small world for yourself. And boy, yeah, and it’s something that again, we naturally are driven to protect ourselves. And nobody wants to feel rejected, nobody wants to feel undervalued or whatever we’re worried about in these kinds of scenarios. But hearing the know and knowing I can survive that and I can [Yes] survive the conversation and move, move down a different path, right because like you said a lot of times it’s not no period, it’s, this isn’t the right time right now, or we need to do this first or something. But that information is important. And it creates optimism, it creates possibilities that you can actually now start to take action against as opposed to this just inner turmoil, right? And like you said earlier, it’s always a no if you don’t…

Laura Browne
If you don’t ask exact, and that and that gets back to my right is rule number one, it’s business, it’s not personal, because there are going to be times that, again, it has nothing to do with you that the company is not doing well, or that there’s a reorganization coming up, or whatever is going on. And so, you know, sometimes you’re just gonna, you’re just going to get no’s. And that’s all part of the game of business. And you just have to accept it. It has nothing to do with you.

Kim Meninger
Exactly. And I think, too, that sometimes that particular conversation just feels too high stakes, right, like I hate to weigh into the deep end for me. So one of the things that I often suggest to you is, ask your, ask your cable provider for a free upgrade.

Laura Browne
That, yes, yes, yes. So start with smaller things that are less high stakes. Yes. Oh, that’s a really good one. Yeah,

Kim Meninger
Yeah. You know, a bargain with somebody at a flea market, right? Like do isn’t, that puts you in a place where you can practice those skills, but in a much safer, lower-stakes environment, get it builds that muscle and builds the resilience, and then you’ll feel much stronger by the time you get to the conversation with your boss.

Laura Browne
That’s good. Okay, so let me add to that, I really liked that. So again, I was one of my rules is work with your boss, again, imagine that this is a project or working with your boss on so so the next project you have with your boss, ask for something not for you. But push a little bit on the project and ask, Can we get some more of this? Can we get more resources on it, again, has nothing to do with you. But you’re trying to communicate about the project? And so in a low stakes area, because if the boss says no, okay, that’s not a big deal. But then you’ll have a chance to work on it. So I really like that idea of practicing.

Kim Meninger
I like that, too, of tying what you’re asking for to a bigger mission than your own, right? Because I do think sometimes we feel like when we ask for a raise, or we ask for a promotion, that we’re asking for a personal favor, and this goes back to your… right? This is business, this is not personal. But it feels very almost selfishly motivated, right of like, well, I should just be grateful that I have a job. And it’s, it’s vain or inappropriate to care about what my actual title is, or to care about my compensation. It’s not, it’s really not. And you know, we absolutely have every right to care about our own career advancement and to want to be rewarded accordingly. But I think if, if it’s hard to think that way to also think about it as if I were to get a promotion and have a bigger title. People externally may treat me with more respect, right, I may actually get things done more quickly, I’ll have more power to influence right, internally or externally. And that’s not just good for me, that’s good for you, my boss. That’s good for the team. Right. So I think there’s also that opportunity to not just, not just think about it from the perspective of what you gain, but from what everybody gains.

Laura Browne
Yeah. And you know, it’s interesting that you say that, because I was, I was coaching a guy. And he was telling me that he didn’t want to boast to his boss about what he was doing. Well, we changed that. And he went to his boss, and he said, what he was doing, which to me, you have to do before you ask for a raise, you have to let your boss know. And he said, You know what happened? And I was like, Okay, what happened? And he said, well, first of all, my boss loved it, because he felt like he was boasting. But more than that, his boss then use that to tell the, his bosses, and he talked about it in a big meeting, because again, he could talk about my team did this. And this person I was coaching, had no idea. He was just thinking it’s all about me. But just as you say, Kim, it’s not it’s the bigger picture, you’re helping your boss. And let me tell you something else. So I spent years and years and human resources. And so I was on the other side when panicky managers would come to me and say, Oh, my gosh, my person just quit. We need to give her more money. And so managers actually want to pay their people the most they possibly can. They really do. Because they want you to stay there as long as you’re doing a good job. But what happens is a lot of women think I’m just gonna quit, it’s easier to quit than to ask for a raise. And then the panicky managers would come to me and say, I had no idea I didn’t know I wish I had known. And so my big message to women is give your boss the opportunity because you don’t want him or her to panicky say don’t run to human resources and say I need to save this person because it normally doesn’t work at that point. So give your boss the opportunity to help you because really they want to, but they have to convince human resources and their boss and a bunch of other people. And the other way you help them is you give them all this information, show to their boss and to human resources, what you’re doing, and that helps them and maybe that will help them get a promotion. So it all works together. But I always said win. Don’t be afraid to try. Ask. And if you get no, it’s just it’s not no forever, no means no, for right now. That’s my rule number seven. And then we talked about how you can then deal with no.

Kim Meninger
And no, is also really good information. Because if you are deciding between I’m going to stay or I’m going to go there’s also often that anxiety of the unknown, right of like, am I trading the devil? I know, for the devil, I don’t know, right? If I’m unhappy because I feel underpaid, or I don’t feel recognized in some way. That’s information that I now have an opportunity to do something with. And so I can in parallel or sequentially decide, You know what, I’m gonna go out there, and I’m going to see what else is out there. I’m going to talk to recruiters, I’m gonna find out what my market rate is, and just check some of my assumptions. But at the end of the day, if you’re leaving anyway, why not? And what have you got to lose by saying to your boss, you know what, I would really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about a salary increase or promotion or something. If they say no, just reinforces your decision that your best bet is to go elsewhere. It’s not that simple, right? But if you, if you really get a worst-case scenario, great, already, that’s what I thought was gonna happen. That’s why I’m already halfway out the door. But you probably going to be surprised. And then you won’t have prematurely left a situation that you actually had some leverage in.

Laura Browne
Yeah. And let me, let me turn this around. Because I love what you just said. So you know, we’re all talking about oh, I might hear no, I might pay or no. Next I’ve been trying. But plenty of times, you hear yes. And I remember one woman I talked with, she was in one of my classes. And so she actually she came back and she was kind of upset. And I said, Well, what’s the matter? So I asked my boss for a raise? And they said, Yes. He said, No, yeah, I’ve been thinking about this for one. So why are you upset? She’s like, how long was he gonna think about it? So she said, you know, if I didn’t bring it up, like was he just gonna keep thinking about it for the next couple of days. So she was a little frustrated. But the news was good, that he was thinking that she needed a raise, and he was going to work on it. And that spurred him, and she did get a nice raise from that. So it’s interesting. So even though we keep talking about No, there are plenty of times we hear yes. Honestly, what you normally hear is maybe, and maybe is really good. And you can work with maybe and typically that I need to figure it out, and it’s talk to human resources, all of those other things. Most time you want to maybe because then that starts a dialogue of what would need to change. What do you need from me? How can I make sure I get the best rates, there are also people out there saying, I’m going to get a raise, we do raises once or twice a year. Yeah, but uh, you can get the best raise possible? And so I don’t want you to get a 2% Raise, I want you to get that five or that 10% Raise. And so by talking about this, and by bringing this up with your boss, you will get the best raise possible when it’s raised time.

Kim Meninger
You’re, you’re exactly right to because they’re making these calculations are going through this decision-making process behind the scenes and you don’t speak up early, guaranteed there are other people who have [Mm-hmm]. Oftentimes the calculation for the manager is who, who’s the flight risk, right? [Yes, yes.] Who’s my person that I can’t afford to lose that I have to be happy right now. And we’re smiling and doing our jobs and not making a fuss. The money is gonna go to the squeaky wheel. And you continue to live in a state of feeling underpaid, undervalued, right. And, and then kicking ourselves.

Laura Browne
Yeah. And we’re just hoping, well, of course, by any I’ve heard this point. Well, of course, my manager knows I want to raise and they just sort of hope and they suggest, but the fact is, it just like you said, there’s somebody else out there saying I want to raise and because you haven’t said it yet, we all want more money. But because you haven’t said it, the money is probably going to go to the person that asked because now the manager it’s on the radar, and they’re worried that person is going to be upset. But Kim, you’re sitting there, you’re smiling, and you seem like you’re doing a great job because you’re following all the rules. And you’re not going to get the more the bigger raise.

Kim Meninger
Exactly. Somebody is, you know, the manager is gonna think well, she’s good for now. She’s, yeah, I don’t need to worry about her.

Laura Browne
Right. And the other thing you mentioned, which is so key is that when you sit down with your boss, your boss gives you the your raise, it’s too late to talk about it. I mean, if you’re getting that 3% Raise, you’re getting it your manager is not going to go back. You need to start working on this three or four months in advance when they start putting together the numbers as you say behind The scenes because they’re negotiating with HR and their boss and maybe other leaders at their level. But when they sit down with you, it’s, it’s been done for a month.

Kim Meninger
That’s right. That’s right. And then that’s a perfect opportunity to think about the, the evidence so to speak, that you’re talking about presenting to right you bring your, your record of the work that you’ve been doing all of the, the, you know, I always say keep an accomplishments journal. Right, right. Yeah, everything that you’re doing, this is your, your repository of information that’s going to help you have this conversation.

Laura Browne
Okay, but I go beyond that. I say you don’t need to have results updates every week, or every two weeks to your boss. So that and then you do a summary of this, and you compile it. But I would say make it easy for your boss. So if every week or every two weeks, I do like a couple of bullet points about what I did and why it mattered. That’s a whole nother thing, then it will be easy for my boss than to go to human resources and their boss to say, look, Laura’s been doing a great job, she deserves more money. So I compile that and I keep sending it to them. And I send them a summary. Again, I make sure that they have everything that they need to make the right decision for me.

Kim Meninger
And I think it’s worth thinking about the mindset shift there to have a lot of times like your client feels like I’m bragging. No, you’re not. You are, first of all, obviously making it easier for yourself to get what you deserve. But you’re also making your boss’s job a lot easier, right? Because he or she has all that information at their fingertips when they need it. They’re not having to hunt you down. They’re not they don’t have to chase you around to find out what status before they go into some meeting. It’s right there, makes you a more effective performer. There’s all around.

Laura Browne
Yeah, and they just like you say, make it easy for them. Because maybe they have seven other people that they are managing, plus a whole bunch of things that they are doing their bosses, you know, putting them under pressure for something else. They don’t have time to do this, make it easy for them. That’s why one of the things I also talked about, is build a business case, give it to your boss, so they have this business case, they have these reasons that they can easily give to, again, human resources to their boss and the senior executives. And they don’t have to worry and spend all the time doing it. You’ve done it for them.

Kim Meninger
Exactly. Yeah. Oh, it’s, it’s such a great strategy. All around forever. Makes everybody’s lives easier. Mostly your own.

Laura Browne
Yes. Because why forget about the imposter because you deserve it. And I think that’s the other thing I need to, I need to still remind myself, I deserve this. I deserve to be happy. I deserve to have a great job. I deserve to have a great boss, I deserve to be paid really well. So I can enjoy my life. Hmm.

Kim Meninger
I think that it’s it sounds so simple. And yet, it’s so hard. Right. And I think that’s, that’s a direct tie in to what we’ve been talking about is to really focus on the, the thoughts that we give our greatest attention to. And, and I think there’s, you know, there’s always that inner critic that says you’re not good enough. You don’t deserve this, right? You’re a fraud. But to really make the conscious choice to think about, you know, what, no, I do deserve this, right.

Kim Meninger
And here’s the other thing I use sometimes to help me because again, I can be really tough on myself. I think what would I tell my best friend? So I would tell her Oh, you go girl. Oh, you are great at that. Look, did you tell them this? So again, if I put myself in the place of my best friend, what would I say? What would I tell myself? What would I be cheering myself on for? Instead of that little negative inner critic?

Laura Browne
That’s great, too. I think that’s another great reframe. Because, yeah, we would never ever say the things to say, How dare somebody said that to you? No, you are much better than that.

Kim Meninger
Exactly, exactly. This has been so helpful. Laura, I think you shared such great insights in such great practical tips. Is there anything else that you would want to share before we wrap up for today? You know, that’s

Laura Browne
I would say that’s really it. If you want some more information, go to my website career tips for women calm. I’ve also got see I’ve got some new classes. I’ll give you the link. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, what I would, I would really just say again, understand, to go back to sort of my first story when the guy was saying, is that really a real thing that most people even he even though he didn’t understand that was imposter syndrome. Most people question themselves and most of us have the imposter syndrome at some point. And you know, but we just really Need to turn it around and recognize that’s just part of being human. That’s just what our brain does to us. And it’s okay. And we just need to keep stepping out and keep pushing, and do things that make us feel a little bit uncomfortable. And sometimes it’s going to work. Sometimes it doesn’t. But boy, when it works, we’re gonna have a great story to share. So be willing to push yourself a little bit like you would push your best friend like you would support somebody else, and be willing to step beyond them and see what happens.

Kim Meninger
I love it. Thank you so much, Laura. This has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate it.

Laura Browne
You are so welcome. Thank you for inviting me, Kim. I really appreciate and it’s always fun to talk to you. So thank you so much.

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